Muse

Hello everyone and welcome back to my show. This is going to be very interesting for Charlie Kirk lovers out there. I know I have a lot of you guys on my channel, but I wanted to do a quick intro before we start, guys. I know I have a lot of Europeans as well, people from Germany, from Poland, like, you know, all over Europe, France. So for you guys, when we talk about Charlie Kirk, you don't quite understand how important this is for Americans and you don't quite understand how important it is for you as well because american politics directly affects europe and europe is kind of a slave to the united states deep state so the reason we're trying to figure out what happened to charlie kirk is because it's almost like kennedy proportions guys and you know these countries kind of sick of seeing another kennedy happen and we're sick of even anticipating that this might happen again so this is why we are making so many different episodes on charlie kirk trust me it's very important um i'm gonna be honest here and say i don't believe tyler robinson killed charlie uh yeah was he involved maybe in a plot but you know my stance and i decided to invite somebody who feels um similarly as i do and who didn't just sit there and watch the events unfold she just decided to act and i think what she's doing is absolutely amazing and you're going to hear some very very important and interesting things today so stick around my guest is z sanchez see i'm gonna give you mike to just explain to my audience american and europeans um what you do how did you get into it and where we are now

yeah absolutely thank you for having me appreciate it absolutely yeah i so you know my name is z uh as elizabeth had said i started a group called the unfuck america tour so we started yeah well Well, and so I think a lot of people get confused, too, because the Unfuck America tour is just the tour. But National Ground Game is the organization that sponsors the tour. So that's where we have like our college chapters and everything. And we're working on more people getting out to vote. That's really like why we started. And really, like, you know, Unfuck America started because of Charlie's grip on the youth vote. That's really what it started as. Obviously, I've always worked for Democrats. Charlie was obviously a Republican. But we really wanted to just see the youth vote shift back to Democrats. And so we started challenging Charlie Kirk on college campuses before he died. So we launched in April of 2025, so just over a year ago. And at that time, Charlie was, I mean, arguably at the height of his career. And unfortunately, I mean, if he had survived, I think his career would have been much, much bigger. Unfortunately, we'll never get to see that. Charlie and I had a lot in common. You know, he had actually said said that himself on his podcast, which I very much agree with. But I would say ideologically, we couldn't be more different. I mean, I consider myself to be a pretty far left Democrat in terms of the party. I helped AOC. I helped Bernie Sanders. But I also like disagree with my party on a lot, a lot of things. And that's where I think Charlie and I like agreed. I believe that the Democrats have not put the footwork in that they needed to. They don't even hard work as much as Charlie Kirk did. And I think that the results of that showed in the last election. And I think that we haven't taken accountability for those results. And yeah, I think that, you know, we were very successful when we launched. But unfortunately, you know, now we don't have a we don't have a political opponent anymore. And that's a that's, I think, a shame, not just for us, but I think for the entire country.

Absolutely agree with you. And let's let's discuss this divisions first before we actually get to TPUSA and what this organization has become, you know, and I know you're doing investigation on TPUSA as well. So with the fake chapters and all that, we'll talk about it. So I'm not a Democrat and I'm not a Republican. I never was any of it. I don't think Americans should side either one or the other, like, you know, side on one side or the other. I think the best part is when they come together in somewhere in between. Right. And I believe that you you just said, you know, there are some things about my party I don't like. And this is what people forget. When you don't like something doesn't mean you just go with it. It means you fight whatever you don't like and keep whatever you like. That's that's what everyone should be. So I bet you guys were, you know, on the other side with abortion. and that kind of stuff right yeah oh yeah absolutely tell me what what bothered you

about charlie kirk i mean so charlie i think and i like we ideologically would disagree on probably everything i mean in terms of what uh well definitely abortion like you said but but honestly i don't even think abortion is like

We begin.

I don't think it's as big. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I mean, when we looked at the exit polls, only 8% of people went to the polls to vote based on abortion. So that just shows you it's such a niche. It's the same thing with trans issues. It is a very big issue.

So what would be the biggest?

Well, I think, well, so here's what's interesting. When Charlie was alive, his position on things like the Iran war were unclear. And I think now that in death, and same thing, by the way, with Israel, same thing, by the way, with a lot of the things that Trump stood for, the Epstein files, a good example. And it's very interesting because I think my gut told me that Charlie Kirk was not okay with the Iran war, was not okay with Israel's influence in American elections, was not okay with Epstein files. And yet he was saying something different from that, right? At the end of his

life. However, at the... Well, actually, sorry to interrupt. At the end of his life, he was actually saying exactly what you said. So, and you're right. People just didn't know because most people didn't listen to Charlie. He went to different podcasts. He opposed the Iran war. He said, I'm leaving the the cause of Israel. I'm not fighting for this anymore. And he even said they're going to ethnically cleanse Gaza. This was Charlie Kirk. So not only he realized, this is why I think Charlie was absolutely amazing, because listen, we can all be wrong about something. And obviously Charlie was about Zionism. And as soon as he realized that he was wrong, he could have just done what every other not every other but many mega maga people did which is oh f it there's money in it i'm gonna support whatever no he said no to millions of dollars millions of dollars and says no i'm not supporting something that's genocidal i'm just not gonna do that so um so that's a huge move and yes i would say at the end of his life charlie kirk actually was all against all of this yeah all of this right yeah and Gary outspoken too that's why he

got killed well I mean and that's it's interesting because you know before the student action the student active for people that don't know what the student action summit is I think that's important to talk about student action summit is a part of the turning point organization they do a big in-person event in Tampa Florida every year and it's mostly designed for students so this is like for like their student chapter leaders to all come together it's kind of like the women's leadership summit but for everybody and um it was really interesting because a couple of weeks before the student action summit and remember this is happening in july charlie kirk's assassinated in september um so it's only two months before charlie was very was flip-flopping on a lot of these issues particularly the epstein files because if you notice way before this charlie was always like we need to release the epstein files period no no and ifs or buts right and then I think that what was happening, and again, well, we kind of have proof of a little bit of this, but I was even predicting back then that him and Donald Trump were obviously having discussions about this, right? And Charlie, admittedly, I mean, everybody has said, and there has been like tracks of this that suggest this, that Charlie Kirk very much looked up to Donald Trump. That was, I mean, very widely known. And I think that the conversation started to happen behind closed doors between the two of them, where Donald Trump was obviously saying, no, we're not going to release the Epstein files. For whatever reason, we don't need to start a new conspiracy. But obviously, there's a reason why Donald Trump was saying that. And when the Student Action Summit happened, and you walked into the Student Action Summit, that was the first time I'd ever been to a turning point event, where it was very clear the divisions that were happening. The anti-Israel stuff. I'd never seen that at a Turning Point event before. Anti-Epstein. This was about a week before, by the way, the Epstein stuff had broke. So it was very high tensions around the Epstein stuff. And Charlie actually on stage at the Student Action Summit had said that he was going to take a different position than Trump on this potentially, right? So, and then we just found out a couple days ago that him and Trump had a closed door conversation after the Student Action Summit but that did not go so well. And so I think that a big part of that was because obviously Charlie had probably said to Trump, hey, I'm not going to support the Israel stuff. I'm not going to support the Epstein stuff. And I'm definitely not supporting the Iran war. And we don't know

what happened after that. Absolutely. And, you know, I understand why Charlie and others kind of had this weird relationship with Epstein files. Also, he was absolutely outspoken again in pbd podcast that this is we need to release this this is just not happening here right i believe the trump administration was pushing this idea that hey epstein files is a made-up miss like russia gate um and you know maybe trump himself believed it i don't know here's here's what i have to say about donald Thank you. I don't believe he's a pedophile. Donald Trump has many faults. And, you know, I'm the first one to talk about it. He's narcissistic. He's absolutely engulfed in his own ego and what he wants to do. And, you know, I don't think that anyone has made this much money in the office as Donald Trump and his family. So, yes, but I really don't believe that he's a pedophile. Also, I do believe that he's swimming in the sea of pedophiles. And he said it himself. I think it was Marjorie Taylor Greene that he told something like, if you do this, my friends will get hurt. If we release it, it's not going to be good for the party itself. Right. And many believed it. Many actually believed it and came out and talked about how, well, you know, it's all a hoax, guys. It's not really a child peddling or something. We know it is. It got released thanks to Ro Khanna and Thomas Messy. Huge fan of Thomas Messy. And I think this is the first time where Americans saw that Democrats and Republicans can work together and how effective they can be when they actually work together. Right. So, yeah, I share your ideas about Charlie, like not understanding quite what was going on with the Epstein files, because he was fed the same myth that everyone else around Trump administration was fed, which is, well, this might be a hoax. Trump is not a rapist. He's not a, yeah, Trump might not be, but others are. And these people are still very much in the executive branch today. So now tell me about this whole investigation that you're doing right now about TPUSA. First explain how you got onto it and then what chapters are, because most Europeans have no idea what TPUSA is and how it works.

So it's good to point to that. Yeah, absolutely. So so basically, like when you start a call like a college or a high school chapter in the United States, at least you have to go through like a pretty lengthy process. So every school is very different what this process looks like. Some it could take up to a year, sometimes multiple years to start a chapter. Others can be like pretty immediate, but you still have a lot of roadblocks. Like you need to get a an advisor at the school. Usually you need to file a bunch of paperwork that needs to get approved by the school, all of these things. So we're very aware at National Ground Game how difficult creating a chapter is. Right. And Turning Point. Well, there were a couple of things that sort of tipped me off, like as a as a political operative about their numbers. One was that Turning Point released a different number pretty much everywhere. So like the New York Times released an article about it. They said eighteen hundred. Their tax filing said nineteen hundred. Another article, I think Tyler Bauer, it said thirty five hundred. Right. So really like pretty. And it wasn't just like, oh, a couple hundred off. Like it was pretty significantly off the numbers that we were seeing. And so that was definitely a red flag. And it was around the time that the New York Times released a whole story on Club America, which Club America, the Turning Point high school chapter specifically, that I started to really look into it. Because they had announced that they had, I believe it was 2,000 high school chapters. And then the other ones would obviously be college chapters. So I went on to the Club America map, and I looked at my state. I live in Nevada, and Nevada is like a pretty rural state. I live in a rural town, but we only have two major cities in Nevada. That's Las Vegas and Reno. And outside of Las Vegas and Reno, our towns are really tiny. So I closed up to the map on one of the schools that was outside of two of our major cities, which was just outside of a town called Winnemucca, which is like up north of Nevada. And this tiny little town, I was like, most high schools that are in these small towns don't even have enough students to even have clubs like period like most of them don't have clubs yeah um and I know this because I went to a really small school myself and like we didn't have clubs because you don't have like the faculty to be able to do it um so I just decided to just call the school I was like you know let me just call them and like see what this is about and they were like uh no we don't have any turning point chapters here in fact we don't have any chapters at all you're not allowed to start a club at this school we don't even have 100 students at this school. And, um, that was my first, like really like red flag, but I thought, you know, it could be anything, right? Like, I mean, sometimes like maybe the students started it, maybe they didn't remember, maybe this was before they didn't have clubs. I mean, there could be a lot of different like scenarios around that. Um, but what I did was that I was like, you know, let me get my intern to just start calling random schools on the map. And that's what he did. And that's when

every single school we were calling time and time again was just no they don't they don't exist no it's been dissolved for years and so we thought well this is good information I think we called 75 schools And nine of them were actually real out of all of that, which is, I mean, you know, 80, 85% or something. Right. And so then what we ended up doing was we just decided to start a chapter on our own because we were like, well, if it's so easy, if anyone can do it, then why don't we just do it? um and it was honestly a lot easier than than what we even thought it was going to be we literally didn't even have to hide our identities we didn't have to do anything we just walked through the steps and within about a week we had a fully active chapter at a high school that hasn't

existed since 2011 that's crazy all right so talk to me about what is the reason they are doing this

I mean, we all know, but let's talk about it. Yeah. I mean, so listen, I think that Turning Point USA has always been a pretty evil organization. However, I think that I do believe that Charlie Kirk really believed in what he was doing. I believe that. I, you know, I think a lot of Democrats would fight me on that. Maybe you would never. Charlie had no idea.

because Charlie had no idea what was going on, even in his own organization. And as soon as he started investigating, and he was actively investigating, I know this from his own friends, he was starting to investigate, and they killed him right away. Yeah, that's interesting, because there was a lot of that.

So since we've been working on this documentary, obviously, this was just, we weren't going to make a documentary about this, to be honest. We just we found this information. We were going to just give it to The New York Times or give it to CNN or somebody we already had a relationship with and just say, basically, do with this what you will. But we decided that we were going to make it because after we started to dig deeper into what you were talking about, we started to interview ex-employees of Turning Point, current employees of Turning Point. and not all these people are disgruntled by the way and the things that we heard part one is just scratching the surface it's not even I think the difference between us and Candace Owens is that Candace she started with a really big question who killed Charlie Kirk right we started with oh that's really weird and now we're like digging to the bottom of the barrel and I feel like the bottom of the barrel for us is who killed Charlie Kirk and I don't think that we realized that when we started the investigation, but from all the calls and all of the, and by the way, I'm sure a lot of people are going to ask when they see this, they're going to be like, well, I mean, how do you corroborate that information, right? Like, how do you even know that that information is real? What if the employee's disgruntled? You don't know. Let me tell you this. We've interviewed probably 25 people at this point, maybe a little less than maybe 20 and almost every single story all of the information falls together the timeline of the information and by the way none of these people know each other these are just all completely random employees some of them are on completely opposite sides of the country some of them worked for turning point 10 years ago some of them work currently work at turning point now and they all have very very similar stories and that's how we know that it has to be real can you tell me some of those stories yeah so um i will say that uh because i don't know how much i'm allowed to say until we really part but i'll give everything out but good do a teaser so people

actually watch you know your stuff when it comes out so we've been talking to somebody that i won't

say what his job is because obviously the way is identity but we've been talking to somebody that was working behind the scenes of one of the shows at turning point um and basically heard um a lot of those final conversations that Charlie was having with his team and one of the things that we heard and this is by the way is from multiple people not just this but he explained the same thing that we heard from multiple people that um Charlie was very much kept away from the organization so the job of his staff was to keep him well fed distracted and on the road right like as long as all of those things were happening that was good that's what they wanted um there's some and we don't have like full proof of this yet because we're still collecting all this information but one of the reoccurring things that we have found is that erica was not really present um There wasn't like, you know, like obviously Charlie was there all the time. Charlie was always working, right? So he was there before anybody woke up in the morning at the Turning Point headquarters. He was there late at night after everybody was gone. And you would think, and a lot of his staff were, by the way, too, because a big part of the Turning Point culture was you work hard. And a lot of people wanted to work hard because they believed in Charlie's vision. And that's what Charlie expected. And that's what they did. But you would think that these people who are at the headquarters all day, right? Charlie's family obviously lives in the vicinity of the headquarters, that Erica would be around, right? Like at least at some points, I mean, even if it was just like dropping off you or whatever, but it was very much like Erica was not, just not really present, like not really around until obviously the assassination. and so you know people can take from that what they will again we're still collecting information on this but as somebody that runs an organization I find this odd right most of my staff know who my husband is they know my kids you know at least my close staff right that work with me every day so for some people to say like no we never saw her we never to me is is very strange and never

saw her like spend of years like give me some time period like yeah I mean some of them years

um some of them had told us too that there was like some like obvious displays of affection too and not not in like a normal way not in like a oh you know I'm at work and my husband you know kisses me and gives me my lunch or whatever and then leaves right but I mean like obvious like large displays of affection um but very rare like very rarely present um and that is just a little bit you know again yeah it's a little odd you know i mean for somebody that you know is living in the vicinity i mean i think that you know they don't live far from the turning point headquarters and if charlie's there all day every day seven days a week i mean you would think that the staff would get to know erica in some way and that just was not the case

wow yeah something very interesting so you're saying when she showed up it was all about love and affection but she showed up rarely almost never almost never and again it very much felt

from the description we've heard from some people it very much felt like it was like not in an authentic way not like but very much like oh people are looking let me give charlie like a huge smooch on the, you know, like type of thing, right? Which again, this has been said by multiple people, which again, to me is odd, because that's a very odd thing to pick up. Like usually, you know, if I was sort of witnessing something like this, I would probably chalk it up to the fact that some relationships are just weird, right? Like, I wouldn't really think too deeply into it. But the fact that they all sort of have said very similar things makes me think that it she probably maybe was like looking around to see if people were looking and again

that's just like very strange behavior yeah i mean she's strange even now i mean the widow is strange for everyone not just the united states but europeans are talking about him it's just a very strange woman i believe and this is just my personal opinion that she's a psychopath i believe that she operates you know she operates the room she looks around what should be done here so i'm perceived uh perceived exactly how i want to be perceived i think that's who she is um now let's talk about tp usa you said i think it was always an evil organization can you tell me more about it um let's say okay charlie kirk didn't know his main function was what he was doing in front of everyone okay debate debate and educate that was charlie's main function and when he started looking into finances and actual organization that's where the trouble started where he shouldn't be looking but um tell me about this evil organization that it always was and uh because most of us missed it right yeah well i think like listen i think turning point

well i think that what turning point started as is not what turning point became i think that at the beginning i think charlie genuinely uh wanted to build an organization that he believed in and he was very good at it and he did that um he's a i've said this multiple times even on cnn I said, you know, I think that Charlie Kirk was the best political operative of our generation. And as somebody that is a political operative, and I have been for almost 15 years, I have a lot of respect for Charlie and what he was able to build. However, I do believe that at some point, and I'm not sure exactly when this happened, and maybe through our research, we will find out when this happened, Turning Point became essentially the RNC. Like Turning Point essentially became the vehicle for Donald Trump to continue to continue to get elected. So I think it became less about Charlie and Charlie's vision and what he saw for America and started to slowly sort of morph into this Trump machine. Right. Or this MAGA machine. And I think that what's interesting about this is that I think at first Charlie was probably on board with this. Right. Like I think like Charlie loved Donald Trump. He wanted to see him elected. and of course if that meant that his organization could help like help that

be achieved, he would do it, right? But I think that as things developed, like what we talked about, right? I think that Charlie saw that the writing was on the wall for MAGA. And I think that it was through like what we talked about, right? Like the Epstein files, the Iran war. And I think that ultimately, Charlie in his mind, and again, I don't know, because I wasn't in his head, but he was as a political operative, what I would be thinking and what I would think he would be thinking is that I can't let my organization sync with MAGA. I cannot let that happen. I've done so much work. I've built so much. I've put so much into this. Trump is definitely, I mean, his approval ratings are the worst that they've ever been. People are not supporting these things. He's obviously not backing down to these things. So what do I have to do? I've got to protect Turning Point USA, my organization. And I think that that just went south. You know, I think that it turned

into what is now history, unfortunately. Yeah, I would agree with that. I would agree with that analysis. But I think it was much deeper than that. I think, you know, turning point became one of those pressure, you know, campaigns to Donald Trump and many others, too. You've got to understand turning point is a Zionist organization today. And it was almost always a Zionist organization. And then Charlie decides, well, actually, it's not going to be a Zionist organization anymore. It's going to be an American organization for all Americans, not just Zionist Americans. And that's where we started seeing the problems. Because again, Donald Trump is the most Zionist president in history. I don't recall we had anyone more Zionist than him. But you got to understand when Donald Trump was running, he told Americans what they wanted to hear, which is no wars, no mingling overseas. It's going to be all about us. Money's going to stay here. We're going to build this new world. And all of that went away. And we ended up, I don't know how you feel about Biden. During Biden, the country was not well at all. So I feel like Trump is doing the exact same thing. I don't see why Trump is any different from Biden. Because none of them are in charge. None of them are in charge. Some deep state is in charge. It was in charge during Biden. Biden was senile and they were like, OK, well, he can be there as a figure and we'll do whatever we want to do. By the way, the same Zionist and same deep state. And the difference is Trump is not politically educated. So whether you have a senile president or an uneducated president, you're going to get what you want. Yeah, well, I think, you know, Trump is not the

brightest. And it's it's sad because, you know, I do think that I don't think that there was a possibility that once, once Charlie had become that close to Trump, I don't think that there was a possibility of that ever ending in a positive way, because we know, we know how Trump acts with his enemies, right? Like, this is just, I mean, it's repeated time and time again. And so I think that Charlie probably said, we're going to part ways on this. And Trump probably said, no we're not and you know as i said the rest is history absolutely so talk to me more about erica

kirk um now that you got to know this organization better got to know this woman better what are

your thoughts about erica kirk you know it's interesting when charlie was first assassinated i was like so like i don't even like know the right word i don't even know if it was like devastation or shock or like, um, like disbelief or like all of those things like combined, like it was just such a scary, like such a scary time. Like as somebody that does this, right. Like I go to college campuses all the time, not, you know, following Charlie Kirk or not following Charlie Kirk. We have people that, you know, like destiny, Adam Mockler, um, these folks. And I was just thinking to myself, like, well, if Charlie Kirk could get shot and like anybody could get shot. right um and so it was just such a like a terrible time and my first initial instinct of erica kirk was oh my god that's horrifying like it's so sad like right like their kids are so young i have kids that are the same age as charlie's kids i've got a two-year-old and a four-month-old which i think are like right around almost the same age as charlie's kids um at the time of his death and i just think to myself like what it would be like to be a single mother like just like overnight like that right um as much as like i disagree with him politically and i disagree with everything the organization stood for like just as a parent that was so devastating to me so i wanted to give erica kirk the benefit of the doubt because i was like you know people grieve differently like everybody says right um but there are just too many things i mean that's the problem right it's like there are just too many inconsistencies with the way that she presents herself with

i mean listen even what was that what was the turning point for you what was that moment for you because that's the I feel the same way as you absolutely I was the the one who felt ashamed because I didn't like her conduct was like shut up shut up this is a widow do not talk about her you do not know what she feels but it got to the point where okay enough is enough you know what was that point for you

honestly I think well I mean listen as we know it was little things along the way right I would say the first like big thing I wouldn't say completely changed my whole perspective but I would definitely say it was weird was Charlie Kirk's memorial right like that moment of the JD Vance thing I mean the whole thing the whole memorial to me was just very much like I just didn't feel like that's what Charlie would have wanted I don't think any like rational mentally sane person uh would want their own memorial to turn into I mean basically like a Nazi rally I mean that's like what it was and it wasn't even just that right like even for people that agree with them were disagreeing with what they were doing because it felt like this was like a stage for like Stephen Miller and all of these people to talk about their own political beliefs and not about the man that just died right like and the whole point of that um so I thought that was very weird and I definitely sort of like kept that like in the back of my head and I was like let's see how this goes but the real like moment for me where I was like okay this is not normal was the Barry Weiss interview on CBS um that to me was just um you know Hunter Kozak was part of the unfuck america tour when this happened um and obviously it was for your viewers if they don't know hunter kozak was the last person to ever ask charlie kirk a question and um cbs was uh invited him out to ask erica kirk a question and i think it was a really good question and he essentially asked her about um violence right and like uh talking about like would you tell if you had the opportunity to say this to donald trump would you tell him we need to tone things down we need to not like we need to stop the political violence and she couldn't answer the question and and not even did she not answer the question but the way that her eyes were in that moment made me feel like did your husband even like was that even your husband that just i mean like i would be so devastated like i don't even know if i'd be able to get through a sentence like that soon after my

husband was publicly assassinated oh yeah i mean she could not even cry the woman cannot cry it's just weird and maybe it's some kind of condition that we don't know about i don't know but i gotta to ask you about hunter causa because i have very you know not positive feelings about hunter and i don't think anyone who likes charlie kirk does so maybe do you know him personally i do yeah i mean he was part of our tour yeah tell us about that because there are so many conspiracies going on i don't much again care about hunter i don't have any positive you know feelings about hunter but um there are many people who are kind of blaming him that he was some kind of a you know part of the plot again I don't care about it I don't think it's the deal but you tell me what you think about Hunter how is it that he ended up being the last person there also if I was Hunter and they called me back to talk to Charlie's widow I wouldn't go I would be like this was too crazy too devastating I'm not showing up you guys get someone else but he did go so explain to me who

this person is yeah so hunter i mean it's very interesting because you know we work with a lot of influencers on the young fuck america tour over to people like withers all of that hunter was a pretty small creator um especially at the time i mean he didn't have a huge following but what we saw in hunter was that he definitely had those debate skills he's a very interesting guy he's uh he's from utah um he grew up in a mormon family he's got two young kids um and you know i know Hunter like pretty well I know him and his wife his wife is awesome his whole family's awesome um but you know honestly for Hunter and it's so unfortunate was that he was just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time that's literally what and as you know it's interesting because with all of our debates um against Charlie but against anybody I mean a lot of the times we go on Jubilee and we prep for every single debate that we have because we're a debating organization the same way that Charlie prepped as well. And so this debate was pre-planned, right? Like we, everybody, he was like, listen, I'm, he goes to the school. I don't know if people know that, but Hunter was not just like randomly there. Like Hunter was a student at, at Utah Valley. Yeah. And so this was not like a planned stop for the Un-Fuck America tour because we were actually going to be, well, it's interesting. I don't know if people know this, but we were actually going to be debating Charlie that Monday so Utah happened on Utah Valley was on Wednesday Monday we were going to be going to Jubilee to debate Charlie and that was going to be awesome and I'm so sad that never happened and Hunter was going to be part of that and then after that we were going to two days after that the following Wednesday we were going to be at Colorado State University and so we actually ended up going to Colorado State unfortunately without Charlie because he wasn't there but that was our I'll see you next time.

plan. That's what we were going to do. So we didn't have any stop. We didn't have any planned stop at UVU. But Hunter basically said, hey, you know, I'm going to I'm going to go out and ask Charlie a question. But he didn't even know if he was going to go because he actually had a newborn baby at the time. And so he decided at the last minute, he was like, you know, I am going to go. And so he went and asked, happened to ask Charlie the last question. And, you know, I think it just is really like so unfortunate because one, I think Hunter was really excited to meet Charlie that following Monday as I said we had all of our plane tickets booked like Jubilee had planned this it was going to happen um and we would never get that opportunity and I think it was obviously really traumatizing for him too I mean how could it not be right like I mean regardless of what you felt about Charlie Kirk I mean somebody getting shot in broad daylight right in front of you in the middle of a debate is like such a crazy situation and I think that he was probably and I again I don't know this for a fact right because I I try not to talk too much um to Hunter about those things because obviously I know it affected him greatly right and I don't I want to be sensitive about you know what that moment was like for him of course we've talked about it a little bit but I don't like to like pry too deeply into his feelings are I do know obviously I'm sure he's still in therapy to this day for it um but I did I do remember like him talking about the Erica Kirk CBS interview. And, you know, one of the things that he had said to us was that, again, like everybody else, I think Hunter was kind of confused by her reaction, right, to the whole thing. And I think like a part of, again, I can't speak for him, but I'm sure that probably a part of what he felt was that he wanted to get answers as well, right? Because I I know for our group, for our organization, the most frustrating thing that happened after the Charlie Kirk assassination was that nobody was saying to Donald Trump, hey, say that we need to tone everything down. Say that we got to stop the political violence. Right. Nobody was like and he was. And the thought of just like seeing somebody get shot right in front of you and that Donald Trump is sitting there being like upping the ante and making, you know, making everybody even more angry about the situation.

well see you gotta remember they were talking about it's all the left it's the left left kill charlie left guitar like because they needed to cover it up so it's like left kill charlie okay so we get it you know there are many people who don't like left but prove it right but exactly

and to us it's like president right to just say i mean regardless of who did it whether it was left right tyler robinson at the end of the day you're the president of the united states you're the powerful man in the world. It was very angering for, I mean, not just for Hunter, but for all of us to see that, you know, we were continuing to do these events with, and actually Turning Point was actually very nice about it. They actually had booked out the theater at Colorado State University and ended up actually letting us use it, which was really, really nice of them to do. And I think that like, we just were very confused over why that can't happen, right? Like, why can't Donald Trump just say, hey, everybody's just got to tone it down. Let's let's get things back to normal. We're going to investigate what happened. We're going to find out how this happened. But instead, no, he wouldn't do that. So I think that Hunter wanted answers from not just not from Trump, because obviously Trump is not going to say it. But but from from the widow of the person that died, you're still supporting Donald Trump after he's saying that. Why? Like why? And and of course,

she wouldn't answer the question. So I mean, from your perspective, you're saying you're supporting Donald Trump after he's saying that, you know, from my perspective, it's a little bit different. I'm saying you're still supporting Donald Trump after your husband's death is not investigated. Like, is that what it is? You know, like crazy. Well, she's going to support Donald Trump because they have like similar ideologies. They see the same, you know, thing, especially now is zionism like erica all of a sudden became zionist then candace just in a i think in a previous show said how anti-zionist she was when she was attending uh tucker carlos's dinner in maine she was anti-zionist but now she's super zionist and it's just like i said this woman is a psychopath i mean that's the in my opinion again in my opinion she is i don't know her but watching her behavior and flipping that's going on here and absolutely no emotion. What, what, what can I do? I mean, I, it's the only, you know, uh, only result that comes in mind that yeah, she probably is a psychopath. But anyway, um, now let's talk about the future of turning point. Where do you see it? And, um, you know, you said something really interesting. You said, it's so crazy that and it's so sad that my political opponent is dead and only a smart person person a wise person can understand how it how important it is to have very eloquent very smart political opponents it sharpens your skills it's better for the country especially the one that it's not hostile charlie is called a happy warrior for a reason he was never hostile he was like respect each other let's have a nice debate this is good for our minds this is like a fuel for our minds right so you were right you're right now that you don't have a happy warrior as a you know

opponent what do you expect turning point to be in the future well it's sad because you know obviously our goal was for turning point to be less relevant but not in the way that it became less relevant that i think a big part of the i i guess like it it sort of mind fucks you for like lack of a better word right because my vision of like what this was going to be was charlie kirk and I directly battling it out and made the best man win. Right. I mean, that's the way that it's supposed to be in this country, that it's a battle of ideas. I believe in that the Democrats run the country better. He believes the Republicans do. And now we get to battle it out. And whoever wins, wins. Right. But now we don't get to have that. And so, you know, and this is what's like interesting, because a lot of people, obviously, Hunter was a big part of the conspiracies. We were too um we were a big part of the conspiracies as well and my question to those people is what do you think because every conspiracy has to have a benefit to it right like we have conspiracies about whether it was tyler robinson or not because there would be a benefit to donald trump or there would be a benefit to erica kirk or tyler bauer whoever but the question would always be what would be the benefit to unfuck america right like without charlie like yeah without your opponent you're

also in a way irrelevant you know it's just how it happened and yes you can again you will always have another opponent but charlie kirk was so bright that it also made the other side look good in many ways you know i mean the guy had the talent there were a lot of things that me and charlie didn't agree on but i always said this man has something he had this it factor that most people don't have and i think it was it was brilliant and it was beautiful but um yeah i agree with you. Now, I want to ask you about something else. Tyler Robinson, what are your thoughts about Tyler Robinson? And do you think that he's somehow involved in all of this?

It's listen, I want to preface this by saying, I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I believe that we landed on the moon. I believe I, I, I detest almost every single conspiracy theory that there is. And I think that usually they're a distraction to finding the real truth. And I think I want to find the truth. That's what I believe. But I just don't believe that Tyler Robinson killed Charlie Kirk. Unless I see some direct evidence. And of course, I could change my mind on this. If the court case plays out, the evidence is shown, and everything aligns with the story that is being told, I will gladly change my mind. But there are just, I mean, from the interviews that we've done, from talking to current and former Turning Point employees, from knowing where Charlie was at in his journey with Trump, with the organization, with a lot of these fake stats, with the way that his team worked around him, it just, there's more questions than there are answers right now. And that, to me, makes me skeptical of, again, what really happened. You know, and I don't, again, I'm not saying that Tyler Robinson didn't do it indefinitely. I don't know that because we haven't, the trial has not concluded, so we don't know. But I do think that there are a lot of things that are very odd about the event. What stands out for you? I mean, I know

there are a lot of things that are odd because I'm investigating the case, so I know, and I'm attending the hearings. So yes, a lot of things are really weird about this case. But what stands

out to you the most? The text messages, I think were really, really strange. I mean, I know a lot of different people. I don't know anybody that texts like that. Listen, the whole trans, like girlfriend thing, I just, again, feels very like, I mean, maybe it's possible. Again, I don't know. But again, these are just like questions that I think about in my private moments where I'm like, I don't know. And it's interesting because that whole thing with Trump, because some people had asked me about Tyler Robinson in the past. And I said, maybe, but I do think it's odd about all the things that happened at the Student Action Summit. And I think, but I don't know, that Charlie Kirk and Donald Trump had a conversation that did not go well. I don't know what happened after that. I'm not accusing anybody of it, but I know that a conference

conversation happened that did not go well. And then a couple of days ago, it just broke that that's what happened. Because I know working in politics, I know how these things work, right? Like I know when you attach yourself to a candidate, what that means. I know when you piss off a candidate, what that means, you know? And so especially at the scale in which Charlie was operating, that conversation that him and Trump had was not surprising to me at all.

Yeah, I would disagree with something. I think Trump was never a huge problem when it gets to Charlie Crook's death. I think Trump, in a way, is also an outsider, like every president is. They are there for, as a four-year employee, this has been proven gazillion times over, that president is on a need-to-know base in America, which shouldn't be the case at all, because, you know, we praise ourselves that we are a republic, we are a democratic republic, we're this, we're that, and we have a literal puppet in power of the, you know, in the White house puppet of the military industrial complex i would add intelligence in there as well but yes um i think it was more of a deep state problem when it gets to charlie than a trump problem um and even in the text messages i don't know if you watch kandy so and show but even in the text messages charlie was not threatened by trump he was threatened by the donors and they almost said like an intervention you know what he needs to do and how so now trump is part of this deep state unfortunately so it's on him you know it doesn't exclude trump from oh any wrongdoing or anything no i mean he's running the country this is where he's running the country you know so he has a choice and he made his choice but yeah i agree with you um so finally my last question where does your battle take you from here on you know i don't know what's going to happen with turning

point now. That's what's sort of the interesting case. Obviously, they're not doing a college campus tour anymore, which I don't know why that whole thing felt. I mean, I do know because they can't find talent because Charlie was the talent and now they don't have any. But we will go to AmFest like we did last year. We will absolutely do that. And we're going to continue going on college campus tours. And we highly, highly encourage that Turning Point comes out and debate sauce. I think the turning point could potentially exist without Charlie, but not with the people in charge. As I've said this on Twitter, I will say it again. I would not let Andrew Colbett, Tyler Bauer and Blake Neff run a McDonald's drive-thru. Yeah, Boyer. Yeah. I would not let them run a McDonald's drive-thru, get alone this organization. And I cannot believe that Charlie Kirk would have allowed them to run this organization either. I absolutely agree with you.

And if you had to pick your opponent instead of Charlie Kerr, who do you think should be in charge? If you could pick anybody, who do you think should be in charge and take Charlie's place in turning point?

Well, that's a good question. I've never actually really thought about it. God, there's just nobody anymore. That's the problem. It's like, you know, at one point, Ben Shapiro could have maybe done it. Or I mean, somebody like.

You mean you mean the Zionist agent that sold out this country like Ben Shapiro, Ben Shapiro, Dave Rubin, all of these guys, they don't get views on anything anymore because people aren't.

And that's why the Republican movement is in a lot of trouble right now because they don't have anybody. I mean, the problem is like the Gripers have sort of taken over this like anti-Zionist movement. right but they just had a uh convention that got like 10 people there at the most every single one of their candidates uh that deaf noodles guy five percent right running for congress um what's his name the guy in florida um i forget his name oh yeah that's i i know who you're talking about like he's gonna get like two percent right so that's the thing is that they there isn't this sort of growth i i think that the whoever the republicans run in 2028 we don't know who they are yet i think it's going to be like this and same thing with the democrats by the way i don't think we know i think it's going to be some random person yeah i think both parties are in serious

trouble i mean from kamala harris to biden to trump i mean what is going on you understand that we have millions and millions of people we are one of the the biggest most powerful country in the world and we cannot pick a freaking candidate for any of the parties it's crazy and i think this is Why is it that there's a talk of a third party where it's a mix of both, like the sane Republicans and sane Democrats that are not all out there, you know? And OK, tell me what that looks like to you, because like for me, the messy, rocana, jocant, that kind of type, you know, like what is that for you? You know, it's so interesting because I obviously I disagree with Candace Owens on a lot of things. She's clearly much further to the right than I am, but I do watch her show. I watch it every single one. She's amazing. Yeah, I watch them all. And, you know, I really like this sort of new I don't even I don't think it's even like a I think it's just like this like new direction she's going with bringing like Anna Kasperian on her show and really like having like those conversations about like, what does a future look like without Democrats and Republicans? Like, what does it look like on the same team, us versus them? And so I have a lot of respect for that. And I hope that, you know, she sort of fosters that like movement because she does have the following to foster that. But in terms of a third party, I don't think it's like I just don't think it's physically possible with the way the Democrats and Republicans have set things up. Because the problem is, is like just getting ballot access for a presidential election as a third party is basically impossible. And they do that on purpose. Right. Because they don't want.

Exactly. So this is why people like Yuzi and Candace and others, like people like Rocano, Thomas, Messi, their stuff. This is where we slowly need to change those steps first and introduce legislation that changes those steps. And then we can pave the way for the third party. And it's absolutely desperately needed. It's desperately needed. Otherwise, I don't see a good future. I mean, obviously, there is a future for this country. I just don't see a good one. No, you know, so we got to start like these young people need to start figuring out, okay, they carved these two passes for us. Why should there be two in a country this big? Why can't we have 50 and pick from it? Like you said, let the best

men win. When Charlie Kirk like talked about what we were doing. I think Charlie Kirk was excited about it right like I mean who doesn't want a counter on your college tours that makes you get better clips you get more confrontation it's it's a good smart business decision to do that right which is why I think he gave us airtime I don't think he gave us airtime because he thought that we were as big as him or any of those things I think that he did it because it was a smart business decision to do it and um I just wish that we have had that opportunity it sucks because I really truly believe in my heart of hearts that if this past spring tour because obviously uv was the first stop we never got to have the charlie kirk spring tour but if that had actually gone through the way it was supposed to go through it would have been the biggest political movement maybe ever on college campuses i um yeah and it's just it really just sucks that that never

happened i absolutely agree with you well thank you so much and uh tell my audience where they can find your work and where they can find you yeah absolutely so everybody please subscribe to

our youtube because that's where you're going to find the next episodes coming out we plan to release one a month right now so um unfuck america tour on youtube um definitely follow it for our future documentary episodes uh you can find me on all platforms at z to the hill thank you so much

This was very interesting. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for having me.