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Hey guys, happy smartless. We're going to smartless the hell out of this. We're going to really podcast it up today. I hope you're ready. Put your helmet on. Clean your ears, because it's coming in. Welcome to Smartless. Smart. Less.

Smart. Less.

Smart. Less. Late afternoon. Late afternoon podcast.

Well, let's just start off by saying happy birthday to Will. Hey, happy birthday, Will. Happy birthday to Will. Yeah.

Oh, my goodness.

It's so crazy. On my birthday today, I was finally able to shit this out. I had this. Lucky horseshoe? This horseshoe up my ass the whole time. Turns out.

That explains a lot in your life.

That explains a lot, doesn't it?

Yeah. Now what happens now that it's out of your ass? Does that mean it's all downhill?

No, I'm going to put it right back where it came from. I mean, the horse is still up there. Shawnee, you little devil.

Did you get anything enjoyable for your birthday? Did your boys take good care of you?

What happened? I got a nice candle from JB and Amanda. Oh, that's nice. With a beautiful card. Three dollars. And I could tell by the candle that JB had picked it.

Yeah, exactly. You know me. I like my candles and my soaps. And that candle right there from Jenny Kane is just about the tip is toppiest. It's a two-wick candle. You know, three-wick, you can't really control the burn. You know, you're going to have a side that doesn't really keep up with the other side.

You're going to get a weak side.

You're going to get a weak side on a three-wick burn. The wax is going to flood the other one, and then you're screwed. You're kind of like a metaphor for us. I'm a two-wick burn kind of guy.

Yeah, sure. So I got that. I got a nice sort of self-care thing from Shawnee, a little gift for Tiff.

Are you going to? Now, a lot of people just let the treatments expire. They forget they've got them. No, not this one. You've got to get in there.

By the way, I had to take out a loan for this one.

Oh, you once gave me a self-care thing, and I wasn't quite the panic. Oh, is it the same?

No. No, this is a new one. I'll get you this one too, Jay.

You're damn right you will. This is tough. We can't even go broadcast on this one. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

she just comes right over to the house

no but you will let me just say you will not complain I will not what? complain well that's not true we never know about you he's a real

Squeaky wheel. And then Danny and Dotty D's gave me some nice books. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. Beautiful books. That you're going to read in one sitting. That I'm going to read.

Now, do your boys panic about what to get the guy who's got it all? Or do they know what they're doing?

No. No, I tell them not to get me anything. I just want to hang out. So I got to have them. I'm the same.

Yeah, because I don't want people stressing about buying me something. I'm just like, I don't want anything.

I know, but people like to do it. I mean, we had this conversation ad nauseum. A bad rush.

Right, but as long as you say, no gifts, please, then at least it takes the pressure off.

Yeah. Yeah, but I always ignore that. I don't know. I learned at such an early age, you always show up with, even if you just go over to somebody's house to visit, you always show up with something. Yeah. Uh-oh, you guys still there? Well, yeah. I'm just thinking about all the sweet treats you've always brought over.

You know, you're never without at least a cookie. Right. Either for myself or for others. Yep.

Uh-huh.

Hey, I brought you this. Don't touch it.

Yeah. We had a great cake last night. Oh, my God, that cake.

I saw the photo. I was waiting for the guy to come out to say, do you want another piece? I know, I know. Like, nobody came out for a second piece? The guy.

They only cut up half of it?

Waiting for the guy. Were you waiting for Jen to say, can you have another piece?

Yeah, yeah, or somebody. I was like. Did they not? Now, what type of cake was it? It wasn't the Rice Krispie one I love, is it?

No, no. It was a classic. It was a classic Duncan Hines yellow cake with chocolate frosting. But done in a way, it was box-worthy.

Did you bring your own hot fudge, you fucking shit pig?

No, it's not. That's your move. By the way, last year, my birthday, do you remember when I brought some kind of like butterscotch or something for the Sundays? To the restaurant.

Where do you think this bit's coming from?

To Tower Bar. And so then everybody's giving me shit. And then Kimmel is giving me so much shit. And then the ice cream comes out. And everybody's like, hey, can you pass that? No, it was caramel. It was caramel sauce. Everybody used it, JB.

It was hilarious. Now, last night when you had that... First of all, what flavor is yellow? Vanilla.

Is it just vanilla? Yeah, it's a rich vanilla. All right, fine. Like a French vanilla is usually kind of yellowy.

Is it an angel food? Is that what it is? I don't know what it is.

What did you call me? Angel.

But it was fun. You were missed, JB. It was really fun. Yeah, JB, you were missed.

You were missed. and it was cool we ended up asking we got the kids involved MAPE and Able that was the best time

that was the best thing of the night doing what? we're talking about what's going on in the world

no what's going on in the world and I said you know what and the kids were at the end Arch wasn't feeling well but Ava and MAPE were there and I said what do you guys think about what we're talking about and all this stuff that's going on what all the grown ups are talking about right now in the world and are you guys stressed and blah blah blah and MAPE said

I say open up the straight isn't that what MAPE said let's just open the straight Just let the oil flow.

Dude, they both gave really good, thoughtful answers that were really representative. Like super intelligent. Yeah, it was so interesting to listen to them.

Yeah, it was wild to look over to both of them who have known since they were, you know, tiny and have these incredible, you know. It was dope. Yeah, incredible opinions, thoughtful, you know, thoughts. They're both very bright. Yeah, they really are.

Tell you who's bright. is our guest. I am excited for our guest today, man. This is, yeah, this is a dude that I have been such a fan of for a long, long time. And he's done, his number of credits are insane. He, Sean, you're going to like this, okay? Okay. He studied at the prestigious Moscow Arts Theater in Russia. Wow. Okay? And then he went, I'm pretty sure he went to Harvard and got a Master of Fine Arts or he did something like in there. He's studied crazy theater, has done a ton of theater. He's currently in a show on Broadway. I don't want to say the title of the show because you're going to know who it is immediately. He's done countless great performances in Wolf of Wall Street. He had a small part in Sicario, Baby Driver, Wind River. And they had great parts in Ford vs. Ferrari, King Richard. You also know him as The Punisher. He's going to be in The Odyssey. He was the accountant, Accountant 2. I got to know him by watching him. on The Walking Dead. But I loved him in this series, We Own the City. Guys, it's Jon Bernthal. Yeah. The great. Oh, my gosh.

I kind of got it. The great. Hell, wow. Dude. Hey, buddy.

Jon, what a thrill, man. I'm such a fan, dude. I'm such a fan of what you do. Man, this is so cool.

That's so cool. You just say, happy birthday, Will. Sing it. Sing it, Jon.

Sing it.

Man, I would sing it, but I'm trying to save my voice for Broadway right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Holy fuck. But Will, man, I just, I want to tell you how much I just was blown away by your film, man. you know like just such a beautiful dive into yeah but just like about fatherhood and being a husband and being an artist and like re-falling in love with your wife and it just like i don't know it was one of those things where you know like i i found it on like the perfect day and the perfect time and it just filled me with so much and it really was your performance it was just so i i reached out to to bradley about it as well but it was just such a human gorgeous uh deep felt performance and yeah it was awesome man so thank you for that thank you very kindly

thank you dude and and and uh i know you you mentioned that you're saving your voice uh john is currently as you guys know in dog day afternoon on yeah big hit with my with my good buddy johnny o is in that too uh oh yeah the best the best johnny o and uh i mean how's that going man how's how's the play going i mean it's a hit as sean said i mean look it it's been uh it it's

so cool that folks are coming to the theater that don't normally come to the theater i i love seeing that it's so many people that we we see outside say it's the first time not just that they've ever been on broadway but that they're coming to the theater um like buses are coming in from staten island which is so great uh and and yeah i mean not to be a a total cheese dick but i did i i kind of this this thing you know sort of saved my life and i i i kind of came about it in russia That's really where I figured this, you know, that's really where my formative years were. And, you know, theater there is very vital and it's for everybody. It's not this sort of exclusive thing for the gentry. It's for everybody and it's a part of everyday life. And it's enormously important to folks. So it's really cool, I think, that this is just sort of expanding the theater audience. And it's been a thrill. It's been a thrill to see how much people dig it.

Yeah, I mean, you mentioned it. I mentioned, too, that you studied in Russia, and I'm kind of so interested because you grew up in Maryland, which we're going to come back to Maryland because we're going to come back to, we own this city because, dude.

Okay.

But you ended up studying theater in Russia. I'm like, walk us through how that happened, man, because that's extraordinary. It seems like, well, yeah, and what time was that? About what year was that?

So I lived in Russia from 99 to, I guess, 2001, And honestly, I mean, it's something, you know, I went to school to play sports. I played football and baseball and played baseball in college. But I was getting in all kinds of trouble. And really, if there was a dead end to walk down, I was walking down it and just running into every kind of wall. And, you know, I really sort of found theater on, you know, on an accident. I was just an idiot and I signed up for a class and I thought I was taking the class with 600 kids in it and sitting in the back of a theater watching movies. But me being the kind of asshole that I was, I signed up for the, you know, the intro to theater class, which was just 10 people who took it very seriously.

Wait, you thought it was like a movie theater?

I totally did. That's what I heard. All the athletes were like, you have to take an art requirement. And I had no idea. And, you know, I've told this story before, but the first assignment was to bring in something that was deeply important to you and to share it with the class. And I had never seen such weird, I'd never experienced something this sort of insane of these grown people talking about an object that that was so important to them and emoting and breaking down. And I'd never really been around theater people before. And slowly but surely it came to my turn and I didn't bring anything. i didn't have anything because i was such a donkey and uh you know but but i was going to fall baseball practice right after and i had my catcher's glove with me so i guess launched into this story about how my my mother had given me this baseball glove on her deathbed and my mom's like alive and well in dc but i launched into this story and i'm crying my eyes out and everyone in the room is crying their eyes out i'm like no no no wait wait wait i'm just i'm doing the acting you know and like snot was coming out of my I was just so upset because I got lost in the story and so this wonderful uh woman Alma Becker who uh my first theater teacher ended up marrying my wife and I she you know kicked everybody out of that class and she just ripped my ass for violating the the sanctity of her studio but she's like you know you got something and and my punishment was to audition for the the play and I got into it and I did the play and and um and she was the One, when I wound up getting in a little bit of trouble and I couldn't finish school, you know, I said, look, this is something I really wanted to do. And I had no idea sort of what the pathway was. And she said, look, there is none. But if I were you, I would try to get into the Moscow Art Theater and go study over there. That's amazing. Yeah, it saved my life. I mean, and being in Russia.

Yeah, but what part of that for, I mean, I'll show my ignorance here because I'll bet the Moscow. Again? Yeah, that school is a clear path.

pathway to stuff. But you didn't know that. Why would you think that that would be, oh yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'll go to Moscow to figure out how to break into

New York or Hollywood. Yeah. I wasn't really thinking about kind of breaking in wasn't really even in the, you know, like staying out of trouble and just finding this thing and really just this sort of blind faith i had in this wonderful woman and it's just such a testament to to how beautiful a teacher you know the role that they can have in a young person's life and and and um it's just astounding she saved my life and i i and and it's it's really cool being here in new york and being on broadway because i do feel so much of i'm very um i feel like i'm very in touch with that 18 year old kid with that kid who found this thing and would have never believed in a million years you would have the opportunity to go out there, you know, in front of this kind of audience every day. And Alma is very much with me. You know, we lost her a few years back, way too young. But I think I just had blind faith in her and it wasn't really a pathway to New York. I didn't know what an agent was, but it was that school, that place. Wow.

Did you, I mean, like, I'm an idiot. Like my perception of going to Russia now, I would never step foot in Russia just because of the, you know, I watched the news. You might not come back. I might not come back. What was it like for you then? And what is it, and would you ever go back?

Oh, I would love to go back.

This was what, 15, 20 years ago?

Yeah, I mean, now you can't. It was 99, so 20, you know, that's when I first went. I mean, it was a wild time. You know, people referred to it as the Wild West there, you know, there were shootings at the Duma, which is like their Senate. You know, the Chechens were blowing up apartment buildings in town. Wow. It was completely wild. People were really, it was still at the beginning of this.

And you're like, and I have a curtain at 8 p.m., people. I got to get through the streets.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'm here to.

But I do think, you know, for me, you know, a few things at play. I mean, I think I sort of considered myself at the time, you know, I was a boxer. I was sort of a, you know, considered myself a street smart kind of guy. So to kind of go into a world where not just it's a different alphabet, they speak a different language, but it was just so wildly different than anything that I ever saw. And I will say, I encountered, you know, real brutality. There's a real brutality on the streets that at that time was sort of impossible. It will find you one way or the other, but also mixed with this unbelievable, just profound beauty and this reverence for the arts. You know, there's a statue on every corner of a playwright or a poet or an actor. And honestly, at that time in my life, you know, I don't know that I would have, you know, responded, you know, really to American theater training. You know, to be an actor in Russia was such a revered thing. And it was a very, for lack of a better word, it was a very masculine thing to do.

Do you think, John, sort of coming from your background, then like going to a place that had that, that was like, it's almost like in your face arts in a way, I mean, reverential and also like appreciation, but so, you know, that it was, it was so sort of startling in that way. And it was so, so in your face. Do you think that that, that actually kind of woke you up to it in a way that you might not have been appreciated here in America? Do you know what I mean by that?

I do. I mean, look, I think for me personally, and again, I know it sounds maybe, you know, apologies, it sounds maybe grandiose, but I really do feel like it saved my life. I was getting in so much trouble and my life just was making no sense. And it gave you structure. It gave me structure. It gave me something to believe in. It connected me with something spiritual. And then when I went over there and my teachers were all folks who kind of came up in a system where public gathering was outlawed. So for them to do plays, you know, they were doing plays in subway tunnels and abandoned buildings and had they been caught you know both the audience and the folks on stage would have been sent away sent to prison but it was so vital to them that they had to do it anyway it was the it was it was it was religious for them and and so for my teachers to to be those those kinds of people um you know they're you know i i mean it makes me

think like sean you're like hey any fun theater stories like yeah i once got shot in the head for doing a monologue.

Yeah, John, sometimes I'll ask people who are in the theater on the show. I'm like, do you have like a staple, hilarious, like something gone wrong?

Do you ever forget your lines?

Yeah, like theater story, you know, like a classic, something went wrong. So, but I can't imagine. Yeah. Some of the words in Russia must be insane.

Wait, John, what was it that... I'm sorry, Jason, I just want to, we're in the theater here for a second, Jason, this is because it involves you. You're on Broadway right now. You're doing the show. the show's over do you have people come backstage go ahead Jason

Jason has do you want people backstage when you're done with the show

he's obsessed with the rules

of people going backstage

because I hear if you don't go back you're being rude and i figure if you go back you're being presumptuous that likes you know hey you're famous i'm famous we don't know each other but uh you probably want to say hi you know oh man

how do you answer this without getting in trouble yeah i don't know i i i we've asked everybody don't worry no no it look i you know it's such a weird thing because i don't want to know who's there and i feel like there's always a way that it's the information kind of sneaks through i mean eban and i have done a thing there's a guest list so almost every night eban and i you know i think last night we said Barack Obama was there the night before I think we said we always make shit up just to freak everybody out but um but I don't know I I you know I it's it's a very it I really appreciate when folks come back and it's not an awkward you know it's it it's really it's it's really um it it it it's like a hotbed of awkwardness I feel like a lot of times even when people are you they're clearly moved it clearly was but you know you're so tired and you're in a

weird sort of state and that's just it you're kind of obligated to make them feel comfortable because it's your house you know you're back there in your dress and they're obligated to make you

feel that they loved it you know right and so jason jason do you think that there's a world now

like next week if you're you're in new york you go and you see what you should go see i want to come and see i can't wait to see it jason can you now having had this conversation with john do you find that you could you could show up only because we've had this conversation so that when we see

each other it's not going to be awkward we'll give each other that little look like i'm here

i would want you to do exactly what you want to do like if you wanted to come back i would want you to come back but if you didn't i would want you to feel so totally good about that to just

go out and enjoy your night you know i just i just assume people want to get home

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And now, back to the show.

John, do you do any kind of warm-up stuff with your voice? Like, I mean, do you even think about where you place your voice and how you support it so you can do eight shows a week and all that? Because you do, if you don't know how to do it, you do tend to, people tend to lose their voices pretty quickly.

Yeah, no, it's a battle. And that was the thing everybody said going in. And I know, Sean, you know it so well. It's, you know, it's like physically, that's one thing I sort of feel like I always have in the bag, you know, like the physical thing. You're not going to exhaust me that way. this is fucking exhausting i mean this is unlike anything i've ever done yeah but you know the um i you'll if you if you do see it you know i speak in a much higher register when i when i do the show um and i think that that helps but yeah i definitely warm up and um you know kate wilson's working with us and she's incredible you know she's like one of one i just did this show a while just a few weeks ago called the unknown and in it every single night for seven shows a week the open page one i i there's this stalker stalking me out there's this stalker stalking me outside of the house and i would do the same movement every single time i would go up on the ball of my foot right i would go on the ball my foot looking like i'm looking for the stalker outside the house look at this no oh no i have a You're a walking boot. I have a boot on because of the play. You didn't hear about boots? Boots is... Yeah, boots is back. Boots McGee? Because of this repetitive, right, the repetitive movements that you do every single day. So don't you... Is any part of your body just, like, feeling that? Any kind of, like, physical whatever?

Well, can I answer this for you, John? You see, John doesn't mainline fucking ding-dongs and tuna fish sandwiches.

He's not, like, acting like a person who needs to be cut out of their house. You know what I mean?

Yeah, his calf. His calf can withstand a little press every once in a while.

Yeah, because he's getting over 1,100 steps a day, okay?

I will say, I try to box or go to the gym every day, and I do think it really does help that you're doing something else.

For Tracy and Sean, the gym is a thing that you... It's spelled G-Y-M.

Oh, okay, got it. Not a gym. um hey john what what was um without prying too much into your into your history and your your flavor of trouble that you like to uh to get into what was it that you found about the theater that was a bit of uh oh jay i thought you were gonna say like what what was your favorite kind

of coke because i preferred columbia because i don't mind a speedy brand every once in a while

um what um what was like uh what what did you find theater did for for you that alleviated some

of that uh the cause i found that the exact same energy that i tapped into when i was young and and sort of my way of you know my best friends are the planet are on the planet are still uh the guys that i grew up with they're my best friends and i and i think that we were wild kids and we We, and I think our way of honestly telling each other that we loved each other was taking crazy risks together and doing things that we shouldn't have done. And I felt that for me, the very same thing, the reckless abandonment and the- High wire act. I'll say like the violence, like let's just throw it all away. Like whatever this is, we're fucking going. Finding that, but using it, tapping into that same thing. but it wasn't landing me in jail. It wasn't landing me in trouble or getting kicked out of schools. It was actually bringing joy to people and making me find different parts of myself that I knew how to sort of access really well. But it was, I mean, again, without sounding like a cheese dick, it was using it for good. And it did, it saved my life.

Yeah. I mentioned Walking Dead. That was the first time that I feel like i remember seeing you on a regular basis in something and i was like i remember watching that show and thinking who the fuck is this dude he's so locked in he's so dialed like this dude is he's got something was that was that a thing was that a major turning point do you think in

in your professional career uh walking dead yeah absolutely absolutely and and and just in my life in general at that point you know i i got married right after season one uh to um to to my wife who i met the day i got home from russia she's a she was an icu trauma nurse um we grew up together she's seen the worst of me um hopefully the best of me um but you know she's she's my whole life and and um had my first child in the beginning of season two surrounded by people who had young families you know doing this work and the work still meant so much to them and they were just family and work and um but yeah I think with Frank Darabont and that show you know it it none of us in a million years thought it was going to be kind of the the juggernaut thing that that it was there was such humility to it and and and people believed in it so much and it's funny because if you you know if you put you know six or seven people out in the woods and you say okay there's zombies out there if one person isn't going a hundred percent towards that fucking truth it's like everything else is bullshit you know and so the show was just such kind of total commitment right from the beginning and um yeah it it's uh i i was just so grateful to frank and and and and so grateful to be a part of that show uh you know it was definitely definitely life-changing

yeah i imagine well it's funny you say that yeah like everybody's got it that show had such a great ability to to keep the tension uh just so taut at all times like you were just like always on the edge of your seat and you're right can you imagine if you had one guy just kind of dialing it into the frame yeah phoning it in you know what i mean like yeah i think i doesn't seem that worried about

what's going on hey yeah right exactly hey john what what talk about the uh sort of that transition from how acting sort of was serving you in one respect early on. And then as sort of your demons, you started to get some distance from your demons a bit and it's really starting to fall in love with the acting and the talent you were recognizing in yourself. And you started to shape some technique, I would imagine. And talk about that transition into, well, wait a second, I'm no longer kind of that guy. I'm kind of really becoming more this part of myself, and this could actually become a career, an occupation, and I'm kind of decent at this. And like, was there a point where you realized, oh, wait, I'm kind of all in on this now, and I don't really know how to do anything else, and I like that, and this is going to be it. Let's really become this guy. And was there that moment or did it just kind of happen naturally as jobs kind of progressed? And now you look back and you go, wow, now I am this.

Well, look, I mean, I think that there's something, I don't know if you guys feel it being, you know, with everything you guys have done and who you are. But for me, I know the healthiest relationship that I can have with this thing is to be hungry. and to not really be at any place of arrival. And what I love about it, it's the same thing I love about being a dad is that the only thing that's for certain is you're going to fucking fail. You know, like you're going to mess up and you got to like, you got to own it and you got to acknowledge it and you got to work through it. And each one of those mess ups and each one of those failings is such an unbelievable opportunity for connection and teaching and growing together for both you and your kid. And I feel so, I feel like it's the exact same with what we do. And I'm, again, I'm just like very, very grateful that I get to do something that I can always just, I'm always chasing and trying to get better at. And challenging yourself. I will say at the time, yeah, for sure. And like right now, like doing this play, like to be this at this age and at this point in my life and still be terrified is such a thrill, you know? It's dope.

Yeah, for sure. It's very cool. That's why you do it, yeah.

Yeah, but I will say for me, luckily, things started to kind of work out for me at the exact same time that I started a family. And I will say it's just, for me, my life has become, you know, really, really simple and clear. It's them and it's this. And I'm very happy with that.

That's not a coincidence, by the way. That's not a coincidence. I think we all know, like, for me, I had the similar experiences. Having kids has cracked me open in a way that it's allowed me to be open to all sorts of things. And so I always believe that those kinds of things go hand in hand. And, you know, it's funny. You were saying this thing about, you know, you're going to make mistakes. And I always think about, I remember watching this documentary about this soccer team. But the coach, this very famous coach, Jose Mourinho, we were talking to the team. The team kind of got down on themselves and they were down at halftime. and he comes in and they filmed his speech to the team and he was like you guys are acting like every time there's a mistake or the other team gets a goal or whatever it's the end of the world and he's like the other team is gonna score right you're gonna make mistakes they're gonna get a goal that's right because they're trying to do the same thing you are but the trick is what do you do how do you cope with it that's the thing and I was that always stuck with me like and I sort of apply it I don't know about you guys I think about that shit all the time in my life When stuff doesn't go exactly my way, I go, yeah, shit's not going to always go your way. Okay, I can't fall apart when it doesn't. I got to go, okay, now what? What can I do now? You know what I mean?

And sometimes things go, you know, just the sort of proximity to, you know, real tragedy and real failure. And, you know, these things, sometimes life hands you such a kick in the ass that it will change your entire perspective. but also you know there's real tragedy that i that i think comes part and parcel with it but sometimes you just get close to it sometimes it's just a a reawakening or you get close to something or you think maybe somebody's sick and they're not and and and and i just i i i feel like it is it is apt it is so true that with each you know sort of failing or fall or tragedy there offers such an opportunity and and and i do think you you know primarily like the job is now to to be a parent and you got to hold it together and you got to show them the different lenses that just changing your perspective, how much can be gained by that.

Luckily, I'm able to show my kids a lot of failure, so it's good that I'm very open with them.

Me too. How old are the kids, John?

I have a 14-year-old, a 12-year-old, a 10-year-old, and then my little four-year-old niece has come to live with us the last few years too. Oh, that's great. That's terrific.

Are any of them showing any interest in what you do? Oh, gosh, no, man.

No, no, no. I mean, I... Have they come see the play? Yeah, they've come see the play, and they're coming again this weekend. But my kids are all, you know, they're very into sports and the outdoors. And, you know, they have very full and beautiful hearts, each one of them. And each one of them is so, you know, such an individual. You know, it's there for them. i think if if if they'd ever want it but i i think right now it's you know i'm not what i do is not

too cool to them how do you um because i i think about this for myself i've got i've got two girls 19 and 14 and um and you know i'm i haven't had a a perfectly straight line towards where i'm at you know sure emotionally or otherwise you know i i i didn't do you know the perfect thing all the time um but i like i like where i've landed and and i don't think i would have landed in this spot had i not banged into a couple of walls and so as i see my girls growing up and um uh you know when they when they go through things that are that are not sheltered um i start to think well how would i react if they make a wrong choice you know if the end because like i don't want to be hypocritical I like the way my adversity has sort of shaped me. And so I battle with that as a parent. You know, you want your kids to have a pristine, you know, travel. So how, you know, like I'm sure your kids are, they've got half.

By pristine, do you mean like protected? Like you want them to.

Well, no, but I mean, I think it's just a natural instinct. You don't want your kid to ever make a mistake. You don't want anything to. I see what you mean. But, right, so I just, I wonder if my kids ever started to experiment with some of the risks that I went through. Sure, sure. I wouldn't want to be, I wouldn't encourage them to do that, but I certainly wouldn't be unaccepting of them coming to me afterwards and saying, yeah, I screwed up, I did this. You know, so I'm not sure what the question is, but, you know, I guess would you, how tolerant would you be if your kids started to walk down somewhat of the same path you did, knowing that you came out okay, you know?

Yeah, I mean, it's such a good, look. I mean, it's, it's, it's, again, it's like, these are the questions we're, we're, you know, you know, as parents, it's like, you know, we're, it's such a blessing to be this obsessed with these people's lives and their wellbeing. And I think adversity is such a important word. There is absolutely no way that I could do the things that I could do, put food on the table the way that I do, if I didn't get the licks that I got and the bumps that I got and the, and, and, and was in the valleys that, that, that I spent a lot of time in. And so I knew, you know, instinctively, I know with my children, adversity is so necessary. And how do I teach my kids the things I've learned, but also know they cannot learn them the way that I learned them? Because there was so many times, and I'm sure it's the same for you guys, where this shit could have gone either way. It was razor fucking close. And like, you know, and we've lost people. I've lost people. I've lost my freedom. I've been in situations where, okay, by the grace of whatever you want to call it, it just went a different way. But, oh my gosh, like I've seen it really not work out. And so, you know, from a young age with my kids, you know, they were, you know, competing in martial arts. They were, you know, like everybody needs to know how to swim. Everybody needs to know how to defend themselves. Everybody needs to know how to be in the outdoors. And how can you sort of under the umbrella of safety, put them in really, really hard, challenging situations where they can learn from. And, and I think moreover, I think, especially for, for, for my boys, you know, how do I teach them, you know, in, in, in this day and age where there's so few role models out there for these young boys, how do I teach them that like, yes, like it, like it is absolutely paramount that you are a protector, that you're a provider, that you're somebody that can be counted on that that people in a crowd if something goes wrong will you guys have the know-how and the ability to be helpful but also equally important are you sensitive are you kind are you vulnerable are you open are you curious do you not judge do you are you hungry for conversation are you hungry to learn are you hungry to be challenged by somebody who thinks looks feels I don't know.

praise to somebody completely different than you? Are you confident enough in yourself to approach any conversation, but also be nimble enough to listen and to be swayed and to be changed?

I'm not, I'm not, John. I knew you got it. Jesus Christ, I knew you got it so bad. No, come on, man. But you know, it's all of it.

You know, like that's what's so cool about it. And I do feel, I don't know if you guys feel the same thing, but I do feel these paths for me are really lining up where, where, where the work that at least the work that I want to be doing, um, you know, really has a, it really informs this. It informs me as a human being. I get a deeper understanding, but also, you know, one day my kids will look at it and they'll say, one, yeah, dad was working his ass off. But two, you know, that, that, that there's, that there's a, there's a message there that, that there's a humanity there that they see in all people, even, even when you play a monster, you know, that there's, there's a little kid in there, there's a scared little kid in there. And, And that it's never too late. It's never too late to bring somebody out of the valley.

How in the world did you gather all this wisdom? Everything you just said. Seriously, it's incredible.

Well, Sean, he doesn't spend all his time watching Below Deck eating Swedish fish. You know what I mean? I got to cross that off my list.

I mean, what are you talking about? He's out in the world, okay? No, traitors. Traitors. Traitors. No, seriously, that was just incredible. Everything you just said, I was like raptured by everything.

He went through the fire. I know, but it's like so. But Sean, I mean, look, you, everybody that I know here on this thing, Sean, you came, you didn't have any, nobody handed you this. This is true. You came from a, you know, you had a single mom household. Your dad left, which we make fun of all the time. It's super funny the way he left. It was so sudden. Fantastic. And five kids just left them all. Just one day, just gone. Just evaporated. Just tire screech. Yeah, just like he was on the USS Enterprise. He just got beamed out of there. So, but I mean, Sean, you grew up in that, and you had to kind of fend for yourself, and you fend your way, and you were a talented dude. And JB, you were out in the world working since you were a kid, and you had to kind of fend for yourself as well. Like, you know what it's like. And none of us knew anybody. I didn't know anybody in show business.

And Will, you had, like, how many maids and servers did you have to leave your house?

We ended up reducing. After the crash of 87, we reduced a little bit. But at boarding school, everybody was, anyway, it doesn't matter.

Parking spot for all of them.

But the point is, I bet you have more, it feels like, John, what's nice is you have real access to your experience in a way that you stay very in touch with it. And that's great because you can kind of, because your kids can learn from that. And that is a thing that I try to do. I try to, Jason, like you were saying, I have those moments where I'm like trying to understand their experience, where they're at, trying to identify with where they're at, where I was at at that age. I have three boys. I have two teenage boys. And I spent a lot of time going, you know, they're going through it. They're going through those years. And I go like, let them have the thing. And also don't make it about me. And like, hey, when I was a kid, just let them have those things, but try to identify with those moments. and it's not always easy, you know, but you try to do it as much as you can. Yeah.

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Back to the show. John, do you have, because everything, I could talk to you about all this stuff you were just talking about forever. I love talking about that kind of stuff.

He's going to try to go side chat. He's going to try to go side chat.

Now, do your kids feel like dad is overwhelming with all of those kind of teachings and kind of parenting, or do they actually listen to what you're saying?

I'm not sure. I'm not sure. My oldest son boxes. I'm his trainer. I coach them in football, and I've coached them in basketball since they were young. um you know i coach my daughter i the thing that i know they see is what i saw in in my dad and you know my dad was the guy that when people in the neighborhood people around dc my friends they all had their own relationships with my dad when they were in trouble they went to my dad he was their coach he was a guy that he he'd call him straight you know he he wouldn't bullshit them he'd he'd he'd help them he always had everybody's back yeah um and he wouldn't judge he'd let let's let's let's work through this let's get through this and then we'll deal with the judgment and all that shit later but he was a guy that could really be depended on and so i think my kids have seen that you know i have real relationships you know we we live in you know this small town of you know we live in ojai and we've been there 15 years i love it's such a small yeah it's it's beautiful. And it's, it's a beautiful community where you still can, you know, raise other kids, you know, you parent other, other, other people's kids, you know, kids come to me and, you know, I, I teach them how to box. I've, I've been coaching football there for the last six years. And, and, and I, you know, we have a theater there where the kids come. And, and so I think that the one thing my kids know is that it's not, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm sort of the same with all of them and and if kid comes to me it doesn't matter if he's my kid or your kid you know i i really really i want to give them whatever i can give them with with while saying look i don't have the fucking answers like i i hit every wall you can hit right but like it's never too late and let your parents love you know whether you're you know whether you're whether they left or not whether they're incarcerated or not they love so sean sean by the way he started he started a theater

basically like a theater and a theater festival in up in ojai is that right oh i didn't i didn't

know that yeah that's cool yeah I mean it's it's just you know in in the town it's it's it's it the town has given me so much and I love it and and um you know since we since my first exposure to it um you know I saw something in the young people in that town you know 10-15 years ago where there was uh such sturdiness and and and such grace and kindness there's it's yes it's it's yes sir no ma'am but there's nothing repressed or suppressed the kids are curious there's a really strong onus of the young people in Ojai to get out go see the world go experience things and then come back and raise your family there and it's a really beautiful community but I will say over the past you know five ten years especially so many folks have moved up there and and culturally it's it's really a place in in in conflict because it's the tipping point has has kind of happened it's very you know we see it in big cities all the time definitely happened in dc where i grew up but you know in ojai it's really gotten to a place where you know the public school there which was a real bastion of of public education has really suffered because of the influx of angelenos that have come up there and uh so i just i i i i love that school i love these kids i love these institutional ojai families so we built a theater in an old

defunct school building and all the proceeds go to the public school theater department and you know we were able to raise

yeah it was really cool Sean's agreeing to do a show there next year it was great what an agreement what a way to agree to something you know

Will always makes fun of me because whenever I go to like a party or a dinner I want to leave right away and I'm like I learned it from my dad oh look at that look who jumped on look who jumped on I did teach you something.

You mentioned D.C. and Maryland, and I want to get to it because it was one of the, for me, it was a show that really, I thought like, wow. It really fucking just blew me away. When you played, was it Wayne Jenkins? Wayne Jenkins, yeah. Yeah, on We Own the City. Did you guys see that on HBO, this David Simon show? I did not, damn it. It's unbelievable. Thanks, man. What's cool is now kind of just talking to you, I can see that, like, you brought some of your own knowledge of all that kind of stuff and, like, sort of the dark guys who ended up staying on the wrong track or got on the wrong track and never got off in this really, I mean, Wayne is a very compromised character, right? And I think that somewhere along the line, when he started, he thinks he's doing the right thing, right? Like he thinks he's fighting in this, but he actually ends up sort of going rogue or bad or whatever. But he sees himself not as doing that. Anyway, it's a very complex portrayal, and I love that show. I mean, tell me about working with David Simon and what that experience was like. It's excellent, man.

Thanks, man. I appreciate it. That one is my heart. And, you know, it was such a thrill and an honor for me. I think first and foremost, you know, at that time, in the wake of Freddie Gray and in the midst of George Floyd and everything that was going on in this country, and for me, just being so, I think naturally, based on people in my life and based on my own experience, I'm so revolted by the flag waving in this country. the people on either side of the polls just waving their flag full of rhetoric, but they've never been in the valleys. They've never been in the situation where they're actually rubbing elbows with the other side. So you can't, there's no access to recognizing decency in each other. There's no access for empathy. There's no access for friendship or for any level of understanding because you're just staying on your mountaintop, you know, just waving your flag. And so for me to go into this project, you know, that, you know, in Baltimore, which is sort of like right in the tip of the spear of race and policing at that time.

Yeah.

You know, and get this front row ticket and also just to have the access coming in sort of with the street cred of David Simon and how much the wire, you know, in that city, that wire for both the guys on the street, the people in the community and for the police, like that is like required watching. Like the cops that I know in Baltimore, they watch that every year to remind them that it's not personal it's business and you guys got

to see yeah i would love you've seen the wire right you guys have seen the wire right yeah

yeah so so for me to kind of go in there like that you know i got to go you know i rode out with those guys every night for for for uh three straight months and went on swat raids with the the county swat team and the city swat team but got to know wayne got to know you know that whole unit of the gun trace task force. So I made unbelievable friends and I was able to see, you know, I'm just so grateful to, to really see it in that way. But I think more than anything else, man, and you know, look, he was considered, you know, the most corrupt, the most vicious, the most sort of vile, you know, police officer in the history of that city. So to go into the police department and say, Hey, I want to ride out with you guys. I want to be around you guys to research this this very very ugly chapter of their life i i learned quickly you know with policing you know how other than the victims and the community uh that are that that are just drastically devastated by corrupt policing it's also good cops are just that are terrorized by it and and their careers are completely destroyed by it and their safety on the street is totally upended by it as well. But I think mostly, you know, for me, the key for me was how do you play this guy and not just play him as a monster? How do you find, you know, some sort of, and it was interesting, man, because every single person who knew Wayne, it was the first thing I said to him when I first met him, everybody who talked to him said, you know, even if he was in the middle of robbing a drug dealer or or you know shaking a guy down making a false arrest no matter what it was if any of his kids needed him at any point if there was ever an issue with the kids he would run home immediately and it really hit me you know how can you engage in such corruption knowing

that most likely this is going to have a bad end because criminality almost always ends bad. How can you be that attuned to your family? And you're really doing one to support your family because you feel like you're not getting paid what you deserve. But that sort of conundrum and dichotomy, you know, really was at the crux of who I think he is and why he was so kind of torn apart. But he wasn't just a monster.

Right, right, right. Well, yeah, no, he's compliant. Sean, you had a little bit of criminality. Remember that time you guys almost got a ticket? Scotty Devil parked while you ran into Chipotle. I remember that story. That was risky. That was really... That's a hot spot.

When I was in college, I stole a turkey sandwich from a 7-Eleven. Oh, my God. And I got arrested. Are you going to play

the turkey sandwich in the movie or are you going to die with David Simon?

David Simon. Hey, John. John. I'll read for it.

John, you're such a great communicator and you are... That's sick. Yeah, it's unbelievable. You're such a great communicator and you have such a passion for community and country. And it seems like you do not shy away from opportunities for leadership. Have you ever thought about politics at all? Do you see that ever? I mean, no, I know. No, no, I think everybody has that reaction anytime anybody ever thinks about it or it's mentioned them. But you look at our, I'm not asking, I don't care what side of the political spectrum you're on, But you look at our current leaders, our current, like you yearn for someone that can communicate like you and that can have the kind of genuine passion for people, for condition and community. And we need folks like you if you ever have the time. So you got my vote.

Yeah. I vote Chase, Adam. Be careful. Look, I mean, look, I appreciate that. I think the people that know me well, my brothers, I have a brother who's a cancer surgeon, the head of oncology at UCLA and orthopedics. He's like, that guy should be running for, that guy is, yeah, but, you know, I really believe that what we do can really be effective. I just do in my heart. And I think that, you know, for me, I feel most natural and most authentic, honestly, coaching and teaching and doing it in my community on the one-on-one. And I think, you know, and I think as far, I do really feel that what we do can really provide a service and can create real change and can really, you know, bring human beings together. And that's what I really want to do.

Yeah, and you do it as well as you, you can.

Yeah, and he does it, like I said, like in We Own the City. It is a great lesson in a lot of sort of really complex issues in that way. So you are being of service as well through your art. Making smiles. Yeah, making smiles. He's not getting votes, he's getting smiles. You've got so many cool things coming. You've done so many cool things, and it's like you're accelerating, man. You're just like, it's awesome. And I'm so psyched that everybody's getting to see you work in so many different ways. Because this summer you've got the new Spider-Man Brand New Days coming out with the Punisher in it. And that trailer like broke every record when it came out. That trailer is so sick. Yeah. And I'm not like a huge superhero movie fan. And even I'm like, fuck, this movie looks dope. And then you're in The Odyssey, right? And Chris Nolan's The Odyssey. Nice. Can you talk a little bit about working with that? Because obviously Chris Nolan's one of the greats.

Yeah, look at that. He had to slug it out there with that fucking drip, Matt Damon. Oh, God, yeah. I don't know how you get through that. We talk about a squeaky wheel. Yeah, that time.

God, what a complainer.

Well, you made it. You made it, though. Complainer.

He's a terrible guy.

Look, I think with Chris, you know, it's like, I think with, you know, I think you get to see sometimes people doing, like, exactly what they're put on this earth to do, and that's how I feel about Nolan. I mean, I think there's these stories, again, you know, everybody kind of going in, oh, you have no idea how hard it's going to be and how rigorous and how, you know, there's no, and for me, I'm like, let's fucking, like, I love that. It's music to my ears. There's nobody who's working harder on that set than he is. And the directors that I've gotten to work with, you know, like Denis, you know, Scorsese or Polanski or, you know, Derek, I mean, there's so many of them. You know, they're all so enormously different, but the thing that I feel like is uniform among all the greats for me, I don't know if you guys feel this way, but, you know, they've done so much work. They know it so intimately well, but there's really an atmosphere of exploration and freedom once you get to work. And I find no bigger... sort of telltale sign of mediocrity than people who it has to be a certain way. And I couldn't believe that within this unbelievable structure and, and this, this unbelievable understanding of exactly what he wanted, um, you know, he's still, um, both inspired and, and, and not just allowed, but demanded, you know, real freedom and creativity within, within every moment.

Like, yeah. Do you find yourself like working with him and like, and these huge pieces that you're doing i mean it's the odyssey for christ's sake and is it and within that there's like a

spirit of like hey let's find it like absolutely absolutely and and and um you know i i think in these films you know i you know i did this movie fury some years back and i did i did the the the the pacific which was sort of the next in the the band of brothers and you know there's these movies sometimes where there's a group of guys and you're all just sort of like slogging it out together for of thing and you forge these unbelievable relationships um you know and there's a group of there's a group of men in this movie that um you know were odysseus's men were matt damon's men and it was this group of actors you know they did eight months in like eight different countries worked so incredibly hard and you know what was cool is you know i i was only on the movie for a couple months and um but but i got to really be a part of that group for the time that i was there And that was such a blessing for me. I think that, you know, the best thing that this offers this life is the people that you meet along the way and the relationships that you get. That's what you're going to die with. And I was so honored to be a part of that group of Odysseus' men. And that I felt just a taste of what, you know, the real long, hard slog, the adventure was. And, you know, that's my big take. That's what I'm most grateful for. That's great.

and then and then i mentioned yeah and then you and then uh the spider-man with uh with tom holland

the great tom holland i love tom i mean look you know like i got to you know i i have a punisher special that i wrote that's coming out next week that i'm really excited about and then and then i'm also doing the punisher and in spider-man and you know with tom because tom was in the odyssey as well you know i've known tom since he was 17 we did a movie in ireland together i made his spider-man audition tape and he made my punisher audition tape yeah and i gotta tell you man like this fucking kid when he was 17 years old and they're like everyone was auditioning for spider-man this dude he was like i'm gonna get like i am spider-man and i was like look dude like mathematically i just gotta be honest like i don't know but like he had such unbelievable conviction and belief and he's so fucking talented but beyond all of it like there is not there is not a better guy like he was raised so well i love his family i love his his his better half i i'm so proud of the man and the movie star and the the the human ambassador that he's become i love his relationship he's really in love they really have a great thing i love them and uh it's so cool for me you know now you know whatever it is 10 years later to come back and you know i spent the whole you know we did two movies back to back with each other and i love this guy and um i couldn't be happier for him oh that's so good dude well we we couldn't be

happier for you man i mean you're just it's such a you're so great and and like jb was saying you're such a great communicator it's it's just awesome to listen to you talk about stuff so happy to I've met you here. I know, man. Me too. Your energy is just sick. Thanks, guys. You've got so much going on. You've got Spider-Man, Brand New Day comes July 31st. You've got The Odyssey opens June 17th. And, of course, Dog Day Afternoon on Broadway. So congratulations. It's just such a joy.

John, see if you can find a work ethic before we see you again.

I was going to ask you for a theater story, but next time I would love to hear just a tragic theater story. I have tons of them Me too

They always make me laugh Really hard Well we're gonna see you backstage I'm gonna drag Jason backstage And we're gonna come back Come on Come on guys

Get your ass out here Willie And drag me out of this apartment I'm gonna come in a couple weeks

Let's go see it The great John Berthold John thanks for joining us dude

It's such an honor guys Thank you so much I appreciate you guys

Nice to meet you buddy See you soon

See you guys Have a wonderful night Thanks for having me guys Yeah yeah yeah

See you man Bye buddy

Bye bye

this guy yeah I mean you know what you know what I find

but he was great Will

I think I'm gonna put him I'm gonna put him on the list with Alicia Keys Lionel Richie Jon Bernthal

for favorites

my three favorite guests

yep I agree man he's or I should say

instead of not favorite guests favorite interviews right so we don't offend some of the people that are my favorite

you know, some of my favorite people. Amongst your favorites. Amongst my favorites. Thank you. Yeah, there you go.

You know, though, to be, and I really mean this, and this goes for you guys, too. I think you have to be- This is going to be hurtful. No, I think you, no, it's a big compliment. I think you have to be super, super, super fucking smart like he is and like both of you are to be talented, to be that talented. You have, I don't know that dummies are talented.

I've met a couple, but- But, but, but true, you're, you're right. I think with, yeah, without the, yeah, yeah. But I mean, there's all kinds of different talent though too, right? I mean, you know, I, I think it's, it's clear that he's drawing on his checkered past when he's playing these incredibly complex characters and tapping into stuff he knows.

JB, JB and Sean, I, I, I, please go watch, we own the cities on HBO. Yeah, for sure. You're in New York for the next little while. You've got time at night. Watch an episode at night. It's so good. I found his portrayal to be astonishing. Like, it's really something. I love that.

And, you know, all the stuff that he's doing in Ojai, which is, you know, there's a neighboring town just outside of it.

Well, when you walk in, it's Ojai, and then when you leave, it's Obai!

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