Muse

Presenting the Cones of Dunshire, a brand new gaming experience. 8 to 12 players, 2 wizards, a maverick, the arbiter, 2 warriors, a corporal, and a ledgerman. Now the ledgerman just keeps score, and he wears this hat. Oh boy. Now the object is to accumulate cones. 4 cones wins, but in order to get a cone, you have to build a civilization. Then you roll 3 dice to see how many dice you roll with. Oh, 16. Perfect. Lots of choices. Okay, each turn goes roll, buy, action. But the corporal can veto. You should be green, too. How did this happen? Are the cones a metaphor? Well, yes, I know. Oh, my God. The Maverick should be able to trade lumber for agriculture credits. How have I not thought of this before?

Um, when do you go back to work again?

Tomorrow. It's fine. I'll just throw this in the garbage. TBTL!

All right, hello, good morning, and welcome, everyone, to day four of the TBTL Summer Games. I'm Luke Burbank right over there, my friend, Andrew Walsh. Hello.

Hello, Luke. I can't believe we're so close to the end of week one already. I mean, listen, I'm not trying to fast forward here. We still have a couple of shows to do, but it's kind of zooming by.

It's been fun. Yes. It's flying by. And I will tell you, as this is airing, I'm not in some tropical locale in a hammock feeling the breeze, drinking Corona or something. I'm probably building a scissor truss with my dad, Walt Burbank, and trying to install it in this ADU that I'm working on at this house that I'm trying to remodel. This will be for me, even though it's nice to have a little time away from the daily drumbeat of the show. I will be so excited to get back to just being a podcaster after being a home renovator for two weeks.

Well, I hope that at some point you just suddenly yell, trust game, and you fall backwards and see if your dad catches you. Wouldn't it be trust fall?

Is that a trust fall? Oh, trust fall.

Yeah, you're right. I messed that up.

It's very hard. That concrete is very hard. I'm imagining maybe on the grass. Maybe I'll, hey, Dad, come stand on the grass, and then I'll go, trust fall, and we'll see how that goes.

Because the whole point of a trust game is, or the trust fall, is the person is ready for you, and you trust that they're going to catch you. Veeves and I, no joke, in our early days of dating, we really took the wrong lesson from that because we would do that. We would try to surprise each other with a fake trust fall, and that's not how that's supposed to work, and that's how people get hurt, both emotionally and emotionally.

Well, that was a thing that I noticed that as a trend on TikTok a while ago of people basically going just like walking up to either strangers or people who are not expecting it, crossing their arms on their chest and then just dropping backwards to see what they would do. Really? Now that, I will tell you, legitimately is a trust fall. It truly is. If you're at like a work thing and you've been throwing marshmallows at each other and yelling into the void or whatever happens at those things, God, I hope to never go to one. if you've done all that and then it's an organized thing where I'm going to fall and then everyone's going to catch me that's called a trust fall but just doing it in a Walgreens to someone you've never met you really trust society at that point

I have a question for you Luke this is a legitimate question okay have you ever crowd surfed Luke Burbank have you ever been on the edge of a stage as a as a spectator at a concert and opened your arms and fallen backwards into a crowd knowing that they will carry you around?

I don't think so, actually. I have moshed plenty. Like when I was in high school and whatever, college, and we'd go to a show where it'd be... It was a brief period, but I did have a period of time where I would be out there in the mosh pit, moshing around. And I don't think I ever got like on the stage and then into the crowd i was never in a band either so it was like i wasn't really on stage in a way that and again the the concerts i was going to it was sort of less they were going to crowd surf me around and more they were going to bash into me with their shoulder yeah sure of course which but zarli i liked even though i'm very like kind of a sensitive boy and i don't really like now i'm not into that kind of aggressive energy release it was cathartic for me in some way as a kid, you know, as a high schooler. Yeah, moshing about. Did you ever mosh? I don't think I did.

I was in a lot of opportunities to do it. My friend Sean Riley would mosh around a lot. There was a guy named Mighty Mosh at this dirtbag club I used to go to, and that was kind of funny. He never wore a shirt. He looked like a character from, like, an NES video game, and his name was Mighty Mosh. He would hang out at Flashes or...

flash gordons um you know i'm thinking about this now you said that it would release something in you and you kind of liked it you found it cathartic and now i like i i don't think you like really being touched much at all like if even like i'm somewhat like like if i were to put my hand on your shoulder i think that would make you somewhat uncomfortable i don't feel that way oh really i

am i am very very careful about making contact with women in particular or really anyone i don't know but i'm not like if you put your hand on my shoulder it wouldn't make my uh skin crawl i wouldn't be like i gotta get that off of me like i don't i'm not anti believe me you get me and camaro kev in a room with enough drinks in us there's gonna be some bro hugging bro's gotta hug it out there's gonna be a lot of side hugging a lot of squeezing a lot of shoulder punching a lot of good times um so yeah i'm not i don't think i'm one of those folks in fact you know who might know the term for that is Dr. Kirk Honda, who's joining us for a second show in a row. He's also the host of Psychology in Seattle, the podcast, and a TBTL listener. Dr. Kirk, welcome back to the show. Thanks for having me. Is there a term for people who are particularly

do not enjoy a sort of physical touch? Boy, it probably is, but I don't know. And I always appreciate it when andrew says well you know the internet they'll make up a word for anything around those kinds of phobias and those kinds of things so i'm guessing there is some word out

there probably like newly minted though like not from the dsm or whatever by the way does a dsm even work anymore like i just feel like we think about things so differently now in terms of what people's motivations are and privilege etc just like there's it's such a more nuanced thing by the way the dsm is the diagnostics what statistical manual what does that even stand for yeah you got it but like that was the big book yeah that was trying to rack up points before even get back into the quiz oh i'm way ahead bro um but like i remember being in college and learning about that in like a psychology class and it's kind of the big book on all the different things that you know might come up in terms of mental health etc but i just it seems so unlikely that very much of that stuff still kind of like holds water what's the in your industry what is the level of respect uh and the utility of the dsm whichever one we're on now oh boy well i could

talk for a long time but the one sentence i'll say is that it's complicated as you guys will say and also that there are good parts and bad parts but you know it's a tool something that we use for certain aspects but it certainly isn't like the end-all be-all when it comes to conceptualizing human beings which are very complicated is it and it's also updated a lot right yeah just just

wasn't updated recently and um like and i know that you need to have some like some sort of boundaries with your patients do any of your patients ever like slip into your dsms and it's uncomfortable for you. Oh, that Dr. Kirk is such a hunk. I'm going to slide into his DSMs. Sorry. I thought of a pun, so I had to give a big buildup for it. Andrew, I just

want to honor that, and I'm going to tell you right now that I appreciated that pun. Even if it was highly unprofessional, I like that that happened. Okay. No, that was a good one. That was a good one. Yesterday, Dr. Kirk was kind of posing some questions that have to do with, I guess you could say, psychology and just human behavior, but also things that are kind of TBTL adjacent. Such questions as true or false, people feel their most sense of self-confidence at age 29. We found out that was false. Turns out it's 70, which was kind of amazing to me. So you've got still a number of questions that we want to take a swing at. So

do you want to get back into it, Dr. Kirk? Let's do it. Let's do it. So true or false our cognitive performance peaks at 25 our cognitive performance peaks 25 now that's

interesting see i'm more likely to bite at this one than the confidence at 29 although 25 seems young but you still maybe have the plasticity of the brain i've got theories okay i'll shut up

still have at 46 i'm happy to say i'm gonna say true and i'll shut up luke what are your theories No, I think it's also true. My theory is the reason I think it's true is because if you, we know that our brains actually start shrinking at around that time, like the physical size starts shrinking. So if you're talking about cognition and you're, you're determining cognition as being just like, imagine your brain is a car, your brain's a race car. As far as like, what's the fastest it can go? I bet you it's at around, what was the number again? You said, Dr. Kirk? 25 i bet you at 25 it's the fastest the race car can drive but i bet you also if you're a good race car driver you could drive a slower car at age 35 but you can get more performance out of it because you've learned how to handle it so i don't think it's a question of like our 25 year olds the smartest they'll ever be it's probably the raw computing power is its most powerful but uh much like in pickup basketball where like there will often be a player who's not the youngest player out there but they just understand all of the angles like literally the angles of basketball and they just always kind of have you slightly on your back foot and they're just like they're not more physical than you are but they're just smarter about the game all of that is to say i think the answer is true that probably it is the your most cognition or your highest cognition but i don't think it means you get dumber after that necessarily so i'm gonna say true and i will also

say true race car drivers are best at 25 what was the question okay okay yeah i'm gonna go with true

as well you're both wrong but damn it you're but you're uh reasoning a lot of what you're saying luke is absolutely true but across several cognitive domains we actually peak around the

age of 40 oh wow i'm still on the back i'm still on the back stretch of that one doesn't do me Which, you know, checks out, by the way, really does. As I struggled on a recent show to remember what the term for crown molding is, I was like, golly, this brain of mine. Well, I guess in a certain way, that's actually, even though we lost, we won, Andrew, because it means we're closer. We're more at the beginning of our cognitive decline than if it were 25. God, we'll take any win. So that's ultimately good news.

Yeah, exactly. Wow. Okay.

Does that stuff, I don't know if this is, Dr. Kirk, I don't know if this is stuff that falls under your kind of areas of expertise or things that you think about, but are there things that people can do that we can do? You know, they say crossword puzzles are really good for us. As far as trying to keep our cognition going across various domains at its, you know, most, I guess, effective, does that stuff work actually? I mean, are there things that we can do?

well like you said earlier uh it's very complicated but i will say three things one is is that those apps that are often proclaimed to help with increasing your iq have a lot of dubious claims yes but it is true that if you don't use it you lose it right so if if you keep using your brain in various different ways, movement, thinking, other kinds of activities, then we tend to retain our abilities. So, yeah, that's in a nutshell.

And you recommend smoking as much weed as possible as well?

Well, that was the third thing I was going to say. As we age, there are things that you can do to stave off the degradation of our cells and our brains, such as refraining from things like that.

Refraining from weed? Oh, refraining from weed?

What about how am I supposed to open the doors of perception if I can't get my lizard king on God if there's if there are two things Luke Burbank doesn't want to do it's number one open the doors of perception and number two get his lizard king on if I honestly if I opened the doors to perception no one would ever see me.

I would just run screaming into the Willamette River. I'd like to keep all of – let's keep the things closed, Andrew. Let's shut the things that close.

Let's close the doors to the perception that close. All right. Can we use our connection to Stephen Conrad to get Kurtwood Smith to say those words, Andrew? Possibly. And our connection to the Cameo app. Okay. What do we got for our next question?

Well, we should take – wait. Oh, is it break time? Okay. All right. We should take a break here. Good call. And so we keep everything on track, and then when we come back, more of this quite fascinating psychological inquiry with Dr. Kirk Honda. Stay with us. All right, we're back here on TBTL Summer Game Numero 4. You're talking to Dr. Kirk Honda from Psychology in Seattle podcast and longtime TBTL dumb. So what's the next question that you've got there, Dr. Kirk?

Well, before I give this one, I just have to say, I feel like I'm on a movie set. I've been listening to your podcast literally every day since 2010, ever since I met you, Luke, at Cairo Radio. You probably don't remember it, but... I do, actually. Okay, the Grizz introduced us because they wanted my podcast to be part of the whole Cairo offerings. And I've been listening ever since. So just being backstage while you do your audio stuff, I just have to say it's surreal for me. Is it inspiring? Don't shy away from the word Inspiring if that's how you feel

I worry though that it's a little like I hope that for you, Dr. Kirk It doesn't feel like, because this is a little bit You know, these summer game shows Unfold a little bit differently than Say a typical episode of TBTL But even so, you know, if you're a guest On, and we'd love to have you on Because you're a really dynamite guest But if you were a guest on a regular episode of TBTL You would get a similar dose of like we're talking we're talking and then andrew and i both kind of know where the like stopping point is because it's like a break it's a timing issue and then i i don't know because i'm in it with andrew how much our affect changes from like we're on to like okay we're gonna cut there and yeah right yeah for the donors are we trying to like we do people would not know this if they haven't ever been on the show and they've only heard the final product which i know it seems crazy because you hear the show and it sounds so incredibly low-key and informal but there is the kind of like we're recording ourselves we're being on and then there is the Andrew and I are talking to each other about the mechanics of the show so you're getting to be a part of that even though none of that will be heard by the listeners I'm hoping it's not like kind of actually slightly

depressing no absolutely not absolutely not i i found your uh stop down tone to be delightful

and not really like what you're talking about down nice this is the guy who knows from radio

and podcast no i just i just got that from you i just got that from the two of you well as long

as your only tones were i believe a ska band that i used to go see uh-huh they were at flash

Some of the guys from Bunny and the Whalers, actually, before that, they were the stop-down tones. Yeah, exactly. All right. Well, I'm really glad that you're having a good time on the show, Dr. Kirk. And this is, like, legitimately, like, sometimes each episode of the Summer Games takes on its own kind of, I don't know, energy. And sometimes it's like, oh, the point of the quiz is just for me and Andrew to just crack wise. I'm so into this particular quiz because I'm actually learning things, too, which is also very fun.

Oh, good. That's good. All right. True or false. Given a choice between saving a stinking ship of humans, a ship of dogs, or a ship of pigs, most people will prioritize dogs first, then humans, then pigs. I think that's 100% true. Dogs, humans, then pigs.

I think that is sadly true.

I think that's what I would do. I think about this actually a lot because I do have, as I describe it, kind of maybe not intrusive animal empathy, but I definitely, if I, I will tell you this. As I am walking around in my life, every once in a while, my brain will start to think about animals that are in distress in the world. And I don't even just mean animals that are being raised to be food. But just an animal, and I won't even name specifics because we've got listeners who are like me, just to think about an animal that's injured or an animal that's living in an abusive circumstance or whatever. And it starts to make me feel so much sadness that I have to like, almost like something out of one of those Marvel movies, like where my brain opens up to this reality for a minute and then I have to close it off. There are people that are suffering in the world. There are human people. And I don't have that intrusive thought about human people as often as I have it about animals, which is kind of messed up, all of which is to say, true. I think that most people or I think people, the majority of people might say they wanted to save a boat full of dogs, although I kind of hope I'm wrong because that is not the priority. We should be prioritizing human life for now. But I think what do you think, Andrew?

Yeah, definitely. I think this is I think this is definitely true for a lot of the reasons that you say. And I think there's something probably and I shouldn't even bring this into it because I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. But I do know that our reaction to people and animals has to do with the way we evolved and the way we feel protective towards babies has to do with the way their faces are shaped and the way that we perceive that. And I think like the cuteness of animals and babies play into our motives sometimes, even if we don't realize it. So, yeah, I'm going to say they're perceived our perception that they are innocent. Yes, exactly.

They just don't, and now raising this cat, I know some of them are not.

No, some of them are quite the opposite. Some of them are just born bad.

Bad to the bone. What is the answer, Dr. Kirk? Is it, in fact, true, as we guessed?

Well, although you are bringing up some very solid points, it is false. Really?

All right. Well, you know what? Honestly, that's probably kind of good. That's a weird one. It's a loss for us, but a win for humankind.

Yeah, people put pigs first, then humans. No, just joking.

Oh, poor pigs. They can't catch a break.

Yeah, humans, then dogs, then pigs. Well, as a side question, because they actually asked them another question, how many humans would you save over how many dogs or pigs? I'm asking this really weird.

so i know what you're saying like what's the ratio like one human to 100 dogs kind of a thing

yes exactly so what do you think for adults so they ask for children and adults but

i'll give your answer for i'll pay more for a kid i mean honestly they got more life in front of them i'm saying if i'm drowning and even one dog has to die let me go okay i want to be on the record with that i've lived i've lived a good life but i am guessing that the people said one child equaled 100 dogs and one adult equaled 50 dogs?

Yeah, you're pretty close. I mean, I asked it funny, so it's a little different than what you're answering, but they would say they would save one human over 100. Adults would say they'd save one human over 100 dogs or 100 pigs. And then children said they would save one human over 10 pigs or 10 dogs. Oh, okay. Okay.

I see. I thought that we were talking about the human life based on if it was a child or an adult, which would be an even additionally complicating factor. Like, are we going to trade more dogs for a kid or for a grown-up who's just been smoking cigarettes and drinking whiskey or whatever and let them go? Yeah, right, exactly. And it's probably racist on Facebook. Right. It's probably like a but-the-emails person.

Right, exactly.

Wow, that's interesting. I mean, again, I think ultimately it is good. It's good that we are prioritizing the humans. Although, you know, as I say that, are you familiar with Peter Singer at all, Dr. Kirk?

No, no.

He is a scientist and he is on the real leading edge of the idea of sort of animal personhood. And, you know, he wrote a book a long time ago called Rattling the Cage. He makes some pretty compelling arguments for, certainly for giving, if not rights to animals, non-human animals, if not giving them the same rights as humans, because I don't really know even practically how that would work, but definitely treating them a lot better than we're treating them. And, you know, this is the big issue for me, and we all knew this would end up here eventually, is Planet of the Apes. like you know how like planet of the apes seems so crazy because these apes are talking and they're talking about charlton heston as if he is an animal and does he have you know does he have any right to any kind of special treatment and when you see that thing sort of inverted it makes me think god what if the animals actually know what's going on what if they're just charlton heston and planet of the apes and we just think they're morons but they're just they just got beamed here from another dimension like man we look bad yeah but i love my cat but she's a dummy

like i mean aside from not even be able to speak like our language like she's she's really dumb so maybe that's just one anecdote but i i like to think that i'm smarter than my cat that almost

makes it worse for me in a way like it sucks when an animal is injured or having a problem because they don't understand what's going on like now this raises the question though like what's worse if you like if you're a human and you're not doing well you know it and you also might know the reason then there's like you have a lot of info if you're an animal you have none of the info is that are you blissfully unaware or are you more bedeviled by the pain because you don't have an explanation for it yeah do you have answers for all these questions how much weed have you smoked today Dr. Cook

how much M83 am I listening to right now

golly I gotta listen to that album more actually I cycle in and out of particularly the second one actually I like both of the Sundays are for youth or whatever wait that sounds like a proud boy thing

I think that's right isn't it the first one

Saturdays are for youth Sundays are for the boys Saturdays are for youth and then the follow-up which I can't even remember the name of but which is really good as well I think we have time for maybe two more questions so do you have two faves Dr. Kirk?

this one transitions well the next one is true or false cats know their names in general

hang on Andrew you and Dr. Kirk talk i gotta do something okay cool uh he's

He's going to go do – he's going to run a little experiment. I'm going to say –

Yeah, well, it's good. Empirical evidence. These are true scientists.

But here's the deal, and I don't know if Luke can still hear me or not, but I believe that my cat will sometimes turn her head when I call her name, but she is doing it because I'm saying it in a way that she recognizes the tone. I talk to her in a specific way, and she might recognize some of the syllables, but I don't believe she knows her name. I don't believe if another person with another voice came into my house and said her name, she would recognize it. I think that she recognizes the way I talk and the way I talk when I'm talking to her. So I'm going to say no, Professor Bananas, as you put it in your question, does Professor Bananas know her name? I'm going to say no.

I was running to the room to pick up my copy of Pawprint magazine, which I impulse bought in the grocery store when I got Bubbles. And this tells you how my life has changed. I used to have these Tashin, very kind of like designy architecture books about mid-century architecture and case study homes. That was on my coffee table. And now I just have Pawprint, A Cat's Brain, Do Cats Love Us, The Truth About Meows, The Science of Dreaming, and Inside Their Mental Health. That's now my coffee table reading. Although I haven't even done any of the reading. I've never even looked at this thing. The Truth About Meows? The truth about meows. Wow. That's one of the articles. I kind of want to know the truth about meows. Well, they also talk. I'm just now leafing through paw print. Zoomies, those frantic runs around the house. Yeah, after they take a shit. Although it may feel like it, it's not your cat's goal to wake you up at 3 a.m. Chapter three, decoding behaviors. God, this is actually a good read. I'm going to get into this. I'm going to spend my vacation reading. Oh, feline dementia. Know the signs. There's actually some decent reporting in this. do cats know their name now i'm not going to look at that page i'm not going to cheat but there's an entire article in here on if cats know their name i am going to say yes you were saying no

andrew i'm going to say no i think cats recognize the like bananas will look if i say her name but i think that's because i'm saying her name in a tone of voice in a sing-songy manner with which she recognizes that i'm communicating with her i think if you were to come into the house and and call her name she would not react because she doesn't know her name she knows my voice and

the way I say her name I think that they learn the sound of their name such that they can identify it even if it's spoken by a different voice I think if somebody walked in and I know Rudy is not a cat but if somebody walked into and that that doesn't even hold up as an experiment say if somebody walked into my old house in Bellingham and said hi Rudy she would come to them but she would also come to them if they were singing the theme song from my fair lady she would just go to them no matter what so that doesn't have anything in their pockets exactly so i'm gonna say yes though because i uh just kind of feel like maybe they're a little more on the ball than we thought

dr kirk what is the real answer well luke give yourself a ding god are now damn it winning you gotta be kidding you yeah i want to point out that luke is ahead by one at this point

really i thought it was crazy now i thought he got a bunch right that i got wrong anyway uh well congratulations luke and also congratulations to professor bananas

exactly so i mean by the way i really didn't cheat but now that i read into that article do cats know their name they absolutely agree with you dr kirk feline friends can recognize their own name but don't expect them to always come when called yeah that's the stipulation is

they don't really care that you're saying your name right uh why doesn't your cat come when

called even though your cat can readily discriminate sounds and cues including their name that doesn't say anything about how they will respond to it although you may really want your kitty to come whenever you beckon cats may find themselves well already busy i am really looking forward to bubbles moving into that phase you know that like the the sort of age-old boring joke which is like dogs will like come when you call them and cats will take a note and get back to you i'm really looking forward to the taking a note and getting back to me part of bubbles is life because right now it's we're not lacking for contact with each other yeah a bit much okay uh we're on the home stretch here final question this is for all the marbles

the wait this is for all the marbles there are marbles yeah all the marbles yeah true or false toilet paper hoarders during the pandemic were motivated primarily by selfishness true or false

wow you know the phrase selfishness is so loaded like that doesn't seem like a term one would use like self-preservate isn't like i'm not trying to make this too complicated but i'm kind of surprised by this question because i would think that that is not a word that you would use in your field. I would think that like, there's a type of

self-preservation like are babies selfish if they cry for food no it's the way it's what they do

so well i believe the research was saying uh you know asking people were you doing it because you were trying to make sure you had right self more toilet paper than other people yeah self

interest is probably a better term yeah okay then i'll say true self-interest yes i mean if this is

You buttonhooked us earlier, Dr. Kirk, because this seems like a zero-brainer that, like, obviously that would be selfish to hoard toilet paper, but maybe they reported that it wasn't for them, it was for their family, and so they saw it as actually, maybe not altruistic, but certainly not just for their own patooties, but for the patooties of the ones they loved. Is that a show title? Tooties of the ones I love? I don't know. I know you don't like butt stuff, Andrew, but that is the cutest way to talk about one.

Probably, yeah. It sounds like what the Charmin bears would say.

Oh, God. So I would, I'm going to say, wait, can you pose the question again, Dr. Kirk?

Toilet paper hoarders were motivated primarily by selfishness.

I am going to say false. I'll say true.

Luke, you have won the game. You were too ahead.

You know what? You two can do the rest of the show your goddamn selves.

Did they? Whoa. They were motivated by fear. They were motivated by fear. Now, as my little brother Sammy used to say when he was like really little, now we're getting down to it. That is the cutest thing for a kid to say. He was like five and he would say, now we're getting down to it.

That is adorable. Wow.

I know. So this is actually very interesting to me because, and I guess what I mean is I think it's worth remembering, right, that so often when people are doing things that we read as aggression, that we read as selfishness, as narcissism, etc., it's probably fear-based, right? Am I overstating that, Dr. Kirk?

No, absolutely. People were terrified, you know, really terrified.

But I just mean also just in the interactions that we have in the world and when someone's being rude, and it doesn't mean that we need to let people get away with rude behavior, but I just think fear is such an incredibly potent emotion inside of us. And a lot of times when we read someone's behavior or whatever or response as a certain thing, it's often probably just fear and it's coming out as I'm hoarding toilet paper or I'm screaming at this. Again, it's not okay, but it's to understand the motivation or to understand the core emotion is probably useful, I think, in those scenarios.

Yeah. Well, now we're dipping into one of my podcast episodes. But absolutely, the primary emotions in my model of emotions is fear and pain. So all of our anger, all of our jealousy, all of our irritability and hostility, it all generates from a foundation of fear or pain. Being hurt, having your feelings hurt, fear of being rejected, fear of being denied, all that kind of stuff, yeah.

Mm hmm. I've often said that in all seriousness, when somebody is acting terrible towards me or what have you, it's usually when I think about it later, I'll be like, well, that's that was an insecurity. Like this person who might be going around being a bully or what have you, they're they're not fundamentally mean. They're not thinking I'm going to be a bully today. They're insecure in their own way. And that insecurity leads. I mean, I think I've said this before. I think we're all at our worst when we're feeling the most insecure. And like my insecurity might manifest in a different way. It might not lead to me being a bully. It might lead to me being other bad things. But, yeah, I just think that insecurity and self-esteem issues lead people to do shit things.

i'll i'll like the other day i was jogging in the neighborhood and uh this neighborhood is sidewalks but a lot of times the sidewalks there are other people on them and i don't want to even to this day i just don't want to get too close to other people mostly for their comfort and also there are like there's a lot of mature trees and landscaping where i live so the roots have literally pushed the sidewalk up in a lot of places and at my advanced age if i'm running on uneven sidewalk it's like i have to do a lot of concentrating to make sure i don't take a spill so i will run in the street and this is a very quiet residential street um streets that i tend to go on and i was jogging down the street kind of totally probably jamming to my m83 or whatever and this guy in like a work van just yells Thank you.

something he's driving past me and he yells something about and all i can kind of hear through the music is the f word and sidewalk and i was like i'm sure he was yelling at me to get on the sidewalk or you should be on the effing sidewalk or something and i was very annoyed at that feedback from him and i spent the rest of the run stewing about it and imagining scenarios where i curb stomp him like american history x um which is a you know i would say is probably disproportionate to him yelling at me but i bet you actually taking your model dr kirk of like fear and pain one of two things either he was nervous because he didn't want to hit me or he felt like there was a chance of him hitting me which maybe made him feel nervous about that outcome or pain or a fearful of that outcome or pain and then this way the pain would be he had to drive more slowly than he wanted to to make sure he didn't hit me and maybe he was already late to get to where he was doing his work it was one of the totally nondescript white van with a ladder on top i was also thinking if i had to describe it to police what would i say i'd be like white guy 30s ish white van like the least helpful description but um probably it was coming from fear or pain that he decided to yell at me in that scenario and again the pain could just be he was feeling like he got slowed down he didn't want to be slowed

down there right or maybe he was just afraid that he wasn't a big enough asshole that day what about

that very possibly um well dr kirk honda thank you so much for putting this quiz together and thanks for being on the last two episodes this has been really great we should try to make it a we need to have a like a dr kirk's corner but we are going to spell it with a k by that i mean corner so you have to agree to those terms and we should figure out a way to tap into your great kind of body of research and knowledge on the topic to do something more on the regular.

Sure, sounds fun.

How do people find your podcast, by the way? What's the best place to get it? iTunes, I assume? Zoom?

Nah, you know, Google.

I said iTunes during the first summer game, which Andrew promptly reminded me isn't even what they call it anymore. So now I'm very into saying please like and rate us on iTunes. I've been ending every summer game with that you've done more promotion for

rankings and likes than you have in the entire history of the show I know but that's how I get

that's how I get what is the best place for people to find I mean but you have a website should people go to your website do you

yeah yeah psychology.com

okay yeah and I noticed

YouTube channel yeah that YouTube

channel looks really interesting I'll be honest I haven't watched those videos yet but I was seeing your like analysis of like the Johnny Depp stuff and things that are pretty squarely in the pop culture, but I'm, you know, obviously you're taking a look at it from a much more trained perspective than the rest of us.

Yeah, it's been, it was quite a ride. I, I, I thought I would just make one episode and I ended up making 65 episodes about the trial. Wow. And people wanted me to talk about it.

Holy cow. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Well, everyone go check out what Dr. Kirk Honda has been up to. because it's good stuff. Thanks, man. Thanks for coming on the show.

Thanks for having me.

Thank you, baby.

All right. Let's thank some daily donors. These generous folks are keeping the show in business with their donations, and we sure do appreciate them. And folks like Dave Bledsoe out there in New York City. Get a pace. Get a pace picante. It's so much less dark than the real one. I know that always comes up when that topic just seemed like hanging cookie was an overreaction. It was disproportionate. Yeah, it was it was not. I mean, OK, he got the salsa from New York City. Right. Also, by the way, I bet you at this point you get some as my friend Russell Kurth, the veteran, used to say, RIP to Russell I bet you get some slamming salsa In New York City these days yeah I'll bet you too I think you're right with all the With the cuisine culture there and everything Like I bet you and you get out there in Brooklyn Out there in Sunset Park where you have a lot of folks Who've come from places in Central And South America you'd I bet you could get some great friggin I smell a tweet What a tweet about this except No one remembers the paste pecan

Well actually I think they do I think it is Kind of I think it that was something that you and I joke around about because it lived large in our memories but I think that that is more of a cultural moment than we give it credit for but anyway there are enough tweets in this world Luke

Dave Bledsoe are there Andrew are there Hammy Soe is in Alameda California hey Hammy how are you thank you thank you Hammy and then another fave Melisande Etch Echinique. Nope. We had a handy-dandy pronouncer. Echinique.

I feel like the... Oh, I'm really embarrassed. I should have looked this up. Because Melisande, in all seriousness, has been a friend and a listener since the earliest days. And she gave us a great pronouncer last year, and I've forgotten it. And I'm really legitimately embarrassed about that. I believe it was H, right? Echinique?

Yes. God, I just remember being floored at how handy it was. I was like, this mystery has been solved, but now it's re-shrouded itself, Andrew. Melly, we love you. I'm sorry that we are terrible with names, but just know that we think you're absolutely the best. Melly also runs the Pen Pal, or is it the Holiday Card Program?

The Holiday Card Program, yeah, which is going to be going off this year now that we have a P.O. box.

What's in the box? Elizabeth McNulty. Hopefully not. I wasn't saying Elizabeth McNulty is in the box. Elizabeth McNulty is our next donor that we want to thank. And Elizabeth is in Laurel, New York. Thank you, Elizabeth. Summer Aldrin is in North Bend, Washington.

Okay, that could have been Illinois too, right? North Bend, Illinois. Isn't that where the fighting, where Notre Dame is? I think you're thinking of South Bend. Oh, well, you can't have a South Bend without a North Bend.

That's exactly right. So I was right. Point to me. Sarah Borden. Okay, now it's tied. I see where you're going with this. I win one contest to figure out who's psychologically more sound, and you'll never let it go.

How are you winning therapy? How are you winning therapy?

Me, the guy who stormed out of therapy once. Boy, how the turntables have turned. Sarah Borden is in Viver, France. Viver.

You're just pulling Viver. I was looking at that wondering when we get there. But Viver, you've got to be right. Right? Because like, well, I was going to look it up, but I think you're right.

Because like, isn't there like a green beans dish that's like haricot ver? Oh, I don't know. And the ver part of it is, I believe, spelled V-E-R-T. I have no idea. This is all new information, all new data. I think. Sarah, give me a oui oui if I got that ver France correctly. But mostly, thank you for supporting the show. Yeah, definitely. We're keeping you company over there in France. that is let me just say before we wrap up thank you to our donors we couldn't be here without you and now I'm going to say that is bringing us to the end of today's summer game but I've got some amazing news everyone we will be right here tomorrow with more summer games for you summer game number five coming your way tomorrow so please do join us for that till then have an amazing Thursday hope you're doing well wherever you are please like and rate us on iTunes and remember No mountain too tall. And good luck to all. Power out.