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The Odyssey, an epic poem of one man's ten-year journey home. Last time on The Ancients, we followed Odysseus from the smoking ruins of Troy, through lands of cannibal giants, sorceresses, and a journey to the underworld, only to leave him with a terrible prophecy and a home in chaos. Today, we plunge into the most deadly part of the journey, the sea of monsters as Odysseus races towards Ithaca, past sirens, a whirlpool, through shipwreck and divine anger. Then finally, he arrives to a palace overrun with predatory suitors who have spent years devouring Odysseus' wealth and courting his wife Penelope, the worst guests imaginable. We will trace Odysseus' secret return under the goddess Athena's disguise, his reunion with his son Telemachus, and the build-up to one of the grisliest climaxes in Greek myth, the slaughter of the suitors. And throughout, we see how this landscape of slavery, of raiding and hostage-taking, were part of how Mycenaean Bronze Age power worked in the real world. I'm your host, Tristan Hughes, and guiding us once more through these bitter, bloody waters is the classicist and novelist, Emily Houser. Welcome to the Ancients. Emily great to have you back on the show

wonderful to be back

it's almost as if we've just finished recording the other one but we are now halfway through the story

of the Odyssey. And we can say that because this is literally the halfway point in the epic story.

Yeah, well, we're right at the kind of middle of those 24 books of the Odyssey. We're at kind of the end of book 11. We've got a little bit more adventuring to do before Odysseus is going to land back on Ithaca, which he does kind of at that halfway point. But, you know, we're

closing in now on the final goal. And to clarify, so people know exactly what we're talking about. So this second half of the story of the Odyssey, it is very much, it's preparing you for Odysseus's, his return to Ithaca, which should be like this great homecoming. But also it's not the loveliest homecoming, is it? It soon becomes a very grisly episode at the same time.

Yeah, he's definitely got problems ahead. So you might sort of think that, OK, well, Odysseus gets home halfway through the epic. What on earth are we going to do for the rest of the epic? but he has got plenty to keep him busy. He has the massive problem of the suitors who are 108 men from around Ithaca and neighbouring islands who in his absence, while he's been away for 10 years in the Trojan War, 10 years on his way home, they have come into his house, into his palace. They have kind of eaten all his food, eaten him out of house and home, been trying to persuade his wife to marry them, persuade her to accept that Odysseus is dead. And so he's got all of them to kind of get through as well as, of course, making sure that everybody is back on his side again.

And this is not just the telling off of the suitors. This isn't the exiling of the suitors. This is the slaughter of the suitors.

They're not going to get just a kind of slap on the wrist. This is absolutely, this is, they are all going to get killed in a pretty kind of major bloodbath. And not many people think of the end of the Odyssey as kind of ending with a bloodbath, but it really does. It's a pretty vicious ending.

And that's what we're going to build up to in the episode today. But first off, for anyone watching or listening who is coming into this episode cold, make sure you do go and listen to the first episode but if you haven't shall we just summarise where we've got up to by the end of book 12 of the odyssey so the halfway point so we've covered some big themes some big events so far yeah well we've actually got up to the end of book 11 sorry

book 11 yeah yeah no but we've done a good chunk of the poem so what we're looking at with the odyssey is about 24 24 books of poetry and we're sort of about hitting the halfway point we've had odysseus he started out on calypso's island that's where we first met him at the beginning of the Odyssey. We've seen his son, Telemachus, go on his own mini voyage. We've seen Odysseus then being released from Calypso's island. He gets into a storm. He gets washed up on the island of the Phaeacians, who are incredibly hospitable, treat him really nicely. And in return, he gives them the song of his own voyages as he kind of got there. And so we then get the tale of everything that happened to him from Troy, the famous episode of the Cyclops, of Circe. We get all of that told by Odysseus and then he ultimately ventures to the underworld. It's the underworld where we left him wasn't it? That's where we left him exactly on the shore of the underworld communing with the spirits of the dead and getting his directions for his way home. Yes so what have

the dead and is Tiresias the prophet in particular isn't it? What has Tiresias just revealed to

Odysseus? Yeah well Tiresias hasn't been hugely helpful if he was looking for a kind of google maps equivalent of how to get back to Ithaca so he hasn't given him that but what he has told him is that sticky situation that, you know, we now know about with the suitors, the fact that Penelope is still waiting, but that Odysseus needs to really get back quite sharpish in order to make sure that he can reinstate himself as king of Ithaca. And he also tells him that he's got another voyage in his future. Once he gets back to Ithaca, he's got to go travelling again. So this is very much a kind of telling us about what's going to happen in the Odyssey, but also telling us that Odysseus is someone perhaps who can never really truly come home.

Gosh, prophetic, isn't it? And he still has his crew at this time?

So at this point, we're sort of heading into kind of the end of the voyage. He still does have some of his crew. Some of his crew. Yeah, I mean, we've kind of mislaid a few on various adventures. But, you know, we do still have some of them. However, that is about to get seriously reduced. And we've got a monster lying in wait in order to do that. And we've also got a kind of pretty serious kind of trespass. A sacrilege. That they do, a sacrilege, exactly, that the crew do themselves.

Well, the last thing before we now kind of explore those next key events that you did mention in the first episode, but I want to bring it up again because it's so interesting, especially when we look at the figure of Odysseus and how he's portrayed, is this idea of him as a hero and how the ancient Greeks would have viewed him as a hero. because it isn't just pure bare bones idolising this figure. This is also a figure who is quite, for those associated with him, it's not going to be plain sailing.

It's not. And in fact, the fact that he kind of brings destruction to his crew is something that is a really strong theme throughout the Odyssey because as the Odyssey opens, it says Odysseus is striving for the return of his companions, you know. So the fact that he fails to get them home is actually a really big.

part of Odysseus' story. It's something that as a hero, you are someone who is probably going to be because you're such a kind of big figure, because you have emotions and ambitions that cannot kind of be contained. You can be very destructive to the people around you. And it's Odysseus' ambition to get back to Ithaca pretty much at all costs. That is what ultimately then costs him all of his

men. Absolutely. And one other thing that we'll be doing as this chat goes on is, yes, we'll be largely talking about the stories and these figures from the mythology uh man and myth beasts and so on but also exploring from time to time the real life locations that become linked to these key events we've already mentioned uh we mentioned places like is it um calypso on multa um the phaetians on corfu the river acheron which is actually a river today in northwest greece And there are several more locations as well for the events that we're going to cover that people later associated with that actually being the place of the sirens of Circe and so on.

Well, that's the thing is that when Odysseus is kind of going on his voyage, it is a voyage through geography, right? The poet is describing islands. He's describing natural features. And so I think throughout history, people have been so beguiled by the idea that this might be a real place and have kind of gone on their own little mini odyssey trying to find out where these places are. So there are absolutely ways that we can match up what kind of later people thought might be the original places of the odyssey.

So how did Rome begin? With a throne, a triumph or a murder between brothers? Well, according to legend, the mighty city was founded by the twin sons of Mars, Romulus and Remus, abandoned as infants, suckled by a she-wolf and destined for greatness until ambition poisoned their bond. I'm Tristan Hughes and I cannot wait to get into the explosive story of Romulus and remus on the ancients live tour in australia and new zealand this august i'm going to be joined by the fantastic jeremy armstrong he's a professor of ancient history and an expert on early rome and together we'll follow the myth from divine origins to blood-soaked founding legend teasing apart what the romans believed what archaeology can actually tell us and how a city built on stories became one of the greatest powers in history. Tickets are on sale now. We're coming to Canberra on the 2nd of August and we're going to be in Auckland on the 8th. The tickets, they are selling fast, so book yours now at fane.com.au. Can't wait to see you there. So how should we kick off this story? Where do we begin for the second half of the Odyssey? Well, we're probably heading

out of the underworld, aren't we? We'll get our ships, we'll get them back off the beach, we'll say goodbye to the spirits. We've had a little bit of information from the spirits, not just from Tiresias, but also from the kind of triad of Greeks. We've had Achilles, who has done this amazing speech where he says that basically he would rather be the lowest labourer and be alive than be the king of the underworld. So a complete turnaround from the Achilles of the Iliad we've got here. We've got Agamemnon, who tells Odysseus about all of the terrible things that happened to him back home, the fact that he was murdered by Clytemnestra and her lover Aegisthus. And then we've got Ajax, who just sulks and is a bit annoyed that Odysseus won the Armour of Achilles, which is one of those early episodes from the Trojan War. However, we draw our ships up, we say goodbye to the spirits and we go back and Odysseus travels back to Circe's island. And he's got quite an important job to do there. He's got to bury one of his comrades who had a tragic accident before odysseus left and who actually appeared to him rather kind of tragically as a spirit as a shade in the underworld and said please bury my body did odysseus already know that he had died or was that revealed to him it was revealed to him there so it's it's a real kind of a tragedy that that this guy elpenor is his name kind of says you you need to make sure to bury me and also as you

mentioned and in the last episode so cersei you know which slash you know what we call many drugs many drugs Circe with a lot of a lot of knowledge of drugs and a romantic relationship between Odysseus and Circe develops from that and then he leaves to go to the underworld and then he's gone back to Circe's island he doesn't stay there long for the second time no no now he's kind of

got his purpose he's got his mission yeah he's got exactly and he's got kind of the problem hasn't he because the issue is now that he knows what's happening back on Ithaca Tiresias the prophet has told him all of the terrible things that are happening. So now his sights have kind of moved from this fantasy world that he's been wandering around with sort of aimlessly and now he's really

kind of sightset back on Ithaca. And so where does he head off to with his troops, with his men

from Circe's island? So Circe gives him kind of the directions that he needs to carry on and he's got a couple of different

adventures ahead of him um we've got famously Scylla and Charybdis uh so we've got uh basically a choice between two evils we've got uh Charybdis which is a kind of sucking whirlpool which you can't escape from and we've got Scylla a kind of multi-headed dog-headed monster who kind of lurks in a cave and kind of zooms out and snatches sailors from the ship so as Cersei said you have to go past you have to choose one of those and she advises him that Scylla is probably the better one uh we kind of have got to know it to see us over these episodes he's going to sacrifice a few men uh and that's exactly what he does so he ends up losing six men on the way past zilla so that's

where he's got to get to but do we have the sirens episode before that we do so before we even get

there we've got the sirens on the way let's do that yeah so the sirens are really interesting because the sirens um they are meant to kind of be these ultimate lure to men and if you basically go past the sirens you're not going to be able to resist them they've got the wreckage of ships kind of around and beneath them um but Odysseus of course is ultimately curious uh he will not be stopped and so Circe suggests to him if you want to hear the song of the sirens then what you need to do is you need to get your men to bind you to the mast and then put wax in your ears and then uh put sorry put wax in their ears and you don't have wax in your ears you're going to be you're going to be hearing everything that they're saying you're going to be the only one essentially who is going to hear the song of the sirens and live to tell the tale and the sirens

And the later idea is, you know, they're beautiful women, but isn't it in the original they're birdwomen or something like that?

Yeah, they're sort of birdwomen. So they're sort of edging into this world of monsters that we're seeing with Zilla and Charybdis as well. So, yeah, absolutely a kind of monstrosity to them. And we know that their voices are very seductive. So what I find fascinating is, well, what is it that a siren would sing that would be the thing that would cause a man to kind of wreck his ship on the rocks? and what it is is it is his epic so what the sirens do is they basically present a hero with what he wants above all which is to be sung of to be immortalized in song and therefore to be remembered um and so they basically what it's really beautiful they basically sing of odysseus the sucker of cities they give him epithets like epithets that achilles gets you know sort of a hero among heroes and that is the thing that is so tantalizing for a hero to hear they don't call

him Polytropos which is what he's described as at the beginning which is kind of a complicated figure

yeah so that's Emily Wilson's translation is complicated yeah yeah for Polytropos which is a fantastic translation um but yes complex complicated that's exactly what he is but

they call him a sacra of cities the sirens are much more flattering to him and what he wants to

hear well and they turn him into the hero that he kind of wants to be because at this point he's very anxious about what his legacy is going to be he's not back in Ithaca yet um he hasn't secured his legacy as king um so i think you know the fact that you hear your own epic being sung

to him is ultimately tantalizing this is the more narcissistic side of odysseus coming out though right he's willing to yes okay his men have got the wax in their ears so they can't hear but he's still willing to steer their ship very near this very dangerous these dangerous mythical creatures on the way to to sate his own desire for glory absolutely and like let's not kind of beat around

the bush it's also other men who've also done that right because they're all wrecked there as well. So he's part of a kind of group of men to whom this is deeply alluring.

And geographically speaking, I said we visit this once in a while. This is very much associated with the coastline of Italy, with the Tyrrhenian Sea, isn't it?

Yeah, absolutely. So there are sort of legends that associate Circe with Italy. So there is a mountain there called Monte Circeo, which is still kind of in its name, connected to Circe. and then obviously yes the Tyrrhenian Sea and then the straits between Sicily and Italy often sort of thought of as where maybe Scylla and Charybdis might have been imagined as I love

that I love that because recently I went to Pestum I don't know if you've ever been to Pestum I have oh the great massive gorgeous temples Doric temples you know there but one of the like the association there you know first of all the ancient Greeks in southern Italy big presence there and their beliefs and one of the gates in the big walls that surround pestum today is called the port of disirena um and supposedly it's very difficult to see today but right at the top of that gate there's a little relief which supposedly shows a siren so that kind of association well at least the ancient greeks who lived there probably was a strong thinking that the sirens lived not too far away from where we were but once again i just wanted to bring that in because it's that that geography linked to yes it's mythological but it's what they thought but also exactly later

people believing that that was part of the map of where they lived and that they thought that that was so important that they would incorporate that in kind of their daily life absolutely well

let's get towards the strait so the strait of messina um and this is supposedly where

Odysseus has that choice exactly this is the fatal choice that Circe gives him and it's Scylla or

crypto

And there's no way around. He has to choose one or the other.

He has to choose. Yeah, absolutely. Which is a kind of, you know, beautiful kind of moment of like, you know, really pinning the hero down and being like, what are you going to do in this situation? And yes, so he takes Cersei's advice and he goes past Scylla. And it is this kind of horrible moment of kind of rowing past that cave as fast as you can. The monster kind of snatching out and gobbling up some of his men. It's exactly what we saw happening with the Cyclops when he lost some of his men being eaten by the Cyclops. So this is kind of, in some sense, a kind of reiteration of something that's happened to the crew before.

And is it this idea of like a three-headed monster? Is it three heads or just one head?

So it's multiple heads and the barking sounds like a dog, is what Homer says.

So I think of Fluffy from Harry Potter and the Foster Stone, but a bit more vicious.

If that floats your boat, vicious Fluffy, exactly.

And I guess that idea that it portrays is those heads kind of going down again and again on the ships as it's going through the cabin.

Exactly, which is why they've got to row as fast as they can to get through.

Okay, and so they lose quite a few men.

Yeah, so he loses six men on his way through. And at this point, I'm pretty sure he's only down to one ship left of the ships that he had. So, you know, we're already quite low on men. And that's kind of the point at which they land kind of on their final stop, which is the island of Trinacchia and the cattle of the sun.

And that's interesting. also as a throwback to our first episode you mentioned the first things that he does after leaving troy is sack a few cities take you know take women as war booty quite frankly as captives and the like so you have to imagine at the beginning you know there are several boats full of men but also captives as well yeah yeah all of them apart from one ship have been lost

by this stage in the journey absolutely that's exactly right and also you know these are if we think about the men the men who have come from Ithaca these are men whose mothers whose sisters whose wives sent them off to war and have been waiting for 20 years for them to come home and then Odysseus basically kind of does a trade with Scylla and is like well I need to get through here to get to Ithaca and you know these are the men I'm going to lose so you've got to think about what the people of Ithaca are going to think when Odysseus returns and this is why it's so dangerous for him to return to Ithaca why he takes so long to kind of return and make sure that everyone's on his side when he does kind of all of that disguise it's because he has lost all of these

people so for those on that one ship who have survived scylla is it scylla or scylla either whichever you prefer it's yeah it's a funny how it's spelled yeah yeah scylla yeah where do they

end up next yeah so the next and kind of final stop which cersei has told them about is the island of the sun god's cattle uh called thrynakia um and basically cersei has told uh odysseus that the kind of one and only thing that they need to make sure not to do is not to eat the cattle of the sun god and the sun god is helios not apollo that is right so basically the kind of they're old gods of the kind of the what we call the titans the kind of the early order of gods and helios is one of those apollo then later as a kind of new god becomes kind of the sun god but helios is the old sun god um yeah so these are his his kind of special cattle and they're just meant to leave them alone now what's really interesting and we didn't talk about this earlier but in one episode of the Odyssey, as he's relating his travels earlier, Odysseus talks about an island that he went to, the island of Aeolus, the king of the winds. And he essentially is the person who governs the north wind, west wind, south wind, east. He is the one who can make sure you get home. A big deal for sailing. A big deal for someone like Odysseus. And of course, in that episode, he very kindly kind of makes sure that Odysseus has exactly the wind that he needs, and he leaves that out and the others he pops them in a bag ties up the bag and tells Odysseus not to undo the bag and Odysseus guarding that bag on his ship falls asleep and of course what do his crew do they think it's full of treasure they open the bag and Odysseus gets blown all the way back to the island of the winds so this is a very similar situation where we've got this moment where okay the hero has been told he can't do this if he does this it's going to be ruined and what do the crew do of course they do it anyway

So does this reflect badly on Odysseus that he can't control his men? Or is this very much a thing that Odysseus did all that he could, but he couldn't control his men?

I think at this point it is more the latter. I think it's more that, you know, they are kind of consigning themselves to their fate. You know, he does kind of try to warn them. This has already been said and kind of outlined to them as something that will be really fatal if they do it. And they just kind of go ahead and do it. So I think at this point we are seeing a leader who is really kind of battling to get his crew home. And he just can't resist kind of the cruel workings of fate, essentially.

So he sees them cooking up the cattle.

Yeah. And it's this horrible scene where as they cook, they sort of make these sort of mooing sounds as they're being cooked. It's really, really kind of disturbing.

And does Helios come with a vengeance right there and then?

they're still on shore i mean how does that divine punishment that divine vengeance that let's be honest we know is coming yeah how is it delivered yeah well it's delivered as it often is in a storm

it's a storm yeah so you know blown off uh the the island again you know can't get back home everyone wrecked um apart from odysseus um and uh yeah as he's in that storm he gets blown back into uh silla and charybdis and at this point he goes back to charybdis he's all by himself he's hanging over the whirlpool holding onto a fig tree that that is kind of extending over the whirlpool and manages to get himself sort of just clamp out that hold onto a bit of driftwood and that is the point at which he washes up on calypso's island and how is he described as he holds onto that bit so when he's holding on he's described he's holding on like a bat like a bat

i had no idea about this until you mentioned just before we started recording but that is a funny

simile oh i love it because i just feel like it's that kind of sense of just kind of clinging with your claws to the branch and sort of maybe also that sense of maybe being sort of slightly sort of topsy-turvy upside down and just sort of but also you know that sort of sense of the creature of the night so I think there's a lot of sort of darkness to this this episode in Odysseus's life where he doesn't know whether he's going to live or die and in fact if we're thinking about bats when the suitors well way way way at the end of the Odyssey are described as being killed they go to the underworld squeaking like bats so we've got bats as kind of here as sort of maybe Odysseus is quite close to getting killed and it's just he just gets out of it he gets onto calypso's island and of course that is actually where we start the odyssey because we start the odyssey right in the middle of the action and the the kind of term we use for this is in medias rays in the middle of the action we start on calypso's island so that story that kind of narration that odysseus has given us of his travels it ends with the point that we started the odyssey and and just as you

said there so actually what we've been talking about with the cyclops and cersei in the last episode with the sirens Scylla and Charybdis and the cattle in this episode all of that in the story is coming from Odysseus's mouth that he is retelling to a king and queen and a princess that he's met along the way is it now when we get to Calypso's island that it goes out of that exactly

we switch out and he says right you know I'm going to finish my story here and that's the point where we then kind of move from Odysseus's narration of his adventures into okay well what happens next We are now sitting on the island of the Phaeacians. We are as close as we think we can get to getting back to Ithaca. They have very good ships. We know this. We've been told this. And all he needs from them is a ship. And if they give that, then Ithaca might once again be within sight.

I think let's briefly recap Calypso's because she's such an amazing figure that we should. Because does it also feel that that part of the story, when he's lost all of his crew, when he's been hanging like a bat, when he's washed up, no ship, nothing left on the island of Calypso, So is it fair to say that this is the lowest point for Odysseus?

I mean, there have been many low points.

I know, that's why I say the lowest maybe.

But I think you're right that it's the lowest because he's lost his crew. And, you know, that's why I would say, you know, we talked about the island of the winds where that must have felt so difficult. Like the fact that they were actually within sight of Ithaca. Oh, they could see it. They could see it. And that's when the men opened the bag of the winds. So, you know, there have been moments of real kind of tragedy. But I think here, because he's lost all of his men and he's kind of really failed in giving them that homecoming, and he's no closer to getting home himself, I think, yeah, there is probably a real desperation there. And it's why kind of as the Odyssey opens, when we first see him on Calypso's island, we see him sitting on the shore and weeping and this really kind of emotive view of a man who's just kind of longing to get home.

And so enter Calypso. Who is Calypso and what does she do with Odysseus when he ends up stranded on her island?

Well, so she's a nymph. She is, you know, a goddess, a mortal goddess. She lives alone on this island called Ogidja. And she essentially kind of brings him in. She gives him kind of food and drink, as you would to kind of a guest. But they also sleep together. And they end up kind of spending seven years together of his voyage, of his return. So a long, long time that Odysseus is there. Now, Odysseus' version, and I feel like, you know, it's important we label it Odysseus' version because we get a lot of this from Odysseus, is that she has been keeping him captive and that he hasn't been able to leave because he didn't have the tools that he needed to make a raft. He didn't have a sail. And it is only when, after that seven year period, Hermes then comes down from Zeus, which is where we start the Odyssey, it's only then that Odysseus is allowed to get free.

Because this is, of course, this is post the event that's made him realise that he needs to get home. And we covered in the last episode how the first time he visits Cersei, it's almost like he forgets and he doesn't have that purpose yet because he hasn't had the prophecy from the underworld. Is there actually, yes, fair enough, it is Odysseus's version, but could there be more truth or at least belief behind the story that like he did want to get off the island, he simply just couldn't for seven whole years?

Yeah, I mean, there is definitely kind of...

of a sense of that kind of that desperation in that like you know if you're in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea on an island and you don't have the means to build a boat like it is really really hard to get off um at the same time you know we also see Calypso in the Odyssey professing kind of the fact that she would love for Odysseus to stay and that she would make him immortal if he would stay with her so she obviously also has a vested interest in this so so yes I think we can kind of see Odysseus as someone who um you know really was kind of wanting to get off on the other hand you know kind of you know he hasn't seven years of sex with calypso you know i mean he hasn't struggled that hard it's not been too bad has it so in regards to years wise i mean how

many years have we now covered from well disney's leaving ithaca to go for the trojan wolves that's yeah we've got 10 years there yeah and then up to him now reaching that island the fight the phaeacians the phaeacians or how we say after he leaves calypso's island how many more years

have we covered since then? So we basically have got seven years with Calypso we've got one year with Cersei that he's done on the way and then kind of the rest of it is probably puzzled together from all of those different stop-offs that he does on his way and by the time we're kind of in the 20th year that's the point at which he then kind of finally gets back to Ithaca. And is this the

next part of the story? So yeah he's done his retelling to this king who's given them and the queen who as you said actually seems to be making the more the decisions and now he has the a fresh ship the transport to finally get back home the return yeah the return is about to happen and

that's why you know the the phoetians are so important to him because they are the moment where he suddenly gets this ship that is going to take him back to Ithaca and not just that but these are kind of magic ships because they can move by themselves and they go the poet says as swift as a thought so the kind of idea is you just kind of think where you want to go and they'll they'll just take you there so real kind of proper magic ships and he falls asleep of course he kind of falls asleep you're in this kind of moment where you're transitioning between the fantasy world and then the world of Ithaca and when he wakes up they've put him on the shore of Ithaca and they've put all of his treasure in a cave and a mist has kind of been cast over the land and at first he's not really sure where he's got to and he thinks oh my gosh I've maybe I've gone to a different island you know i'm not back in my island ithaca and it's kind of a moment of real

worry for him but of course it's not the end of the story um and the gods will still play a big role in what will happen next first off i want to ask about poseidon god of the sea because he's not best pleased with odysseus since killing his is it his son polyphemus that's right yeah yeah so so he's been obviously god of the sea making sure he can't get home yeah when he finds out that Odysseus has been helped, has actually got home. Is he still angry with Odysseus?

He is very angry. Yes. So Poseidon has a long grudge against Odysseus because of the blinding of his son, the Cyclops Polyphemus. And of course, the Cyclops cursed Odysseus. So Poseidon takes this very seriously. The fact that the Phaeacians have done this is seen as a massive insult to him. Now, Odysseus at this point is, in fact, although he doesn't know it, safely back on Ithaca. And at this point, Poseidon, I think, as god of the sea, realises that's kind of the end of his jurisdiction. But what he does do is he takes out his anger against the Phaeacians who helped Odysseus. And so when their ship gets back into the harbour of the Phaeacians, it's an extraordinary moment where he sort of slams his hand against the side of the ship and it gets turned to stone.

Gosh. And everyone on board gets turned to stone.

Yeah. And it's a really kind of horrible moment of basically kind of him like interditing this seafaring nation and just sort of, but what's also fun to go back to kind of what you were saying about where real places might be. There are many rocks kind of in the islands around that kind of that area, particularly Corfu, that kind of maybe look like ships and that people have thought, well, maybe that is the kind of rock that people thought was a ship turned into stone.

right okay so the key episodes have been from where we said so underworld cersei sirens

scylla and karybdis calypso phaeacians phaeacians ithaca that's right so we are finally now thanks to the magic ships we are finally on ithaca um and we've kind of just about passed the kind of halfway point of the narrative so you know as we said we've got still kind of a good 12 or so books to get us into that point where Odysseus feels like he can kind of be certain enough that he can kind of start to stage the comeback, as it were. But at this point, he's really got to start gathering his allies around him.

And which divine allies does he have? Not just in the mortal realm.

Yeah, well, the first one is a really important divine ally because you've got to get the gods on your side if you're in the ancient world. And the first one is Athena. It's Athena. Yeah. And so Athena, she's sort of been the patron of Odysseus the whole way through. We saw her coming into Olympus right at the beginning and making sure that he got freed from Calypso's island. And it is her now in the second half of the narrative.

who comes to Odysseus personally and basically reveals herself to him, reveals the island. She lifts the mist off in a kind of beautiful moment of revelation. And Odysseus suddenly sees that he is back on his homeland of Ithaca again.

So he sees, and from then on, she knows that Odysseus still has got a lot to do because he's returning on his own.

Yeah.

They're conversing together as well. That's another key part of the story. So what do they decide is the next step for Odysseus?

Well, they basically decide that he needs to approach this in stages. so it's really important that he doesn't kind of just storm into the palace say you know i'm here i'm home i'm back exactly because you know would people believe him it's been a long time he's obviously changed and there's also kind of the fact of all of the people that he's lost on the way there's the fact he doesn't even know who is loyal to him anymore after 20 years do they all believe he's dead is penelope even loyal anymore so he's got to kind of approach this and stages and gather his allies around him so what athena does is a really important moment of kind of the narrative is that she transforms him so that he looks like a beggar like an old homeless kind of poor man and that's really important for him because that kind of changes his status it makes him kind of at the lowest level of the social hierarchy and that's what will slowly allow him to then climb his way back up to becoming king again so he's been transformed

into a beggar and then he starts walking towards the palace itself i mean who does he meet along

the way yeah so on his way he meets a really key figure Eumaeus Eumaeus yes and Eumaeus is the swineherd so he's looking after the palace's pigs um he is uh an enslaved person so like a very kind of faithful to Odysseus faithful to the palace um and Odysseus knows that but he's obviously got to kind of test his loyalty so coming in as an old beggar he basically asks for his hospitality and Eumaeus who's you know one of the good guys makes sure that he shows him good hospitality and gives

him a nice little meal of some some piglets and how yes how does that interaction play out what does Odysseus ask him to get a sense of the lie of the land as it is yeah well so he wants to

first of all find out what's happening up at the palace and so he wants to know kind of what's the situation with the suitors what's the situation with Telemachus with Odysseus's son with Penelope and he also kind of sets up this false identity as it were of his his past which is one of what we call these Cretan tales Cretan tales yeah so each of these there are three different times where he pretends to be somebody from Crete. The first time he's done it is to Athena because he wasn't quite sure who she was at first. So he said one of these little lies where he pretends that he's got this background with Crete the second time to Eumaeus and then he does another one later on to Penelope.

Now, meanwhile, Athena is helping with Odysseus. But in the last chapter, we also covered how there's also this adventure of Odysseus' son, Telemachus. He's gone to find out more about what's happened to his dad, visited other kind of key figures of the Trojan War who have made it home. like Nesta and Menelaus, king of Sparta and so on. But for a thing, is Telemachus on Ithaca at that time? Or does he need to get back to Ithaca?

Yeah, he needs to get back. And there's a serious kind of jeopardy here because Telemachus is obviously quite seriously hated by the suitors. Yes. Who want Penelope's hand and quite clearly want him out of the way because he's a potential heir once he kind of becomes a man. So what's happened is he is now, he started off with Pilos. he then went to Sparta and on his way back they are very much planning to ambush him and so he is in serious kind of danger at this point in terms of the ambush but at the point where Odysseus has landed on Ithaca he is still kind of about to make his way back so again we've got these two these father and son stories happening in parallel

Is there a moment where they both reunite?

They do so once Telemachus manages to get through that ambush he survives he's okay he first goes to Eumaeus' hut and who should be visiting there but the old beggar so Odysseus at this point is in Eumaeus' hut Telemachus comes in and we've got this amazing moment where the father for the first time in 20 years gazes on his son again and he does reveal himself to Telemachus at this point makes sure that he's got Telemachus on side he's now sort of slowly building up his allies

and from there you know from that lowly swineherd's hut is that where they start to to plan yeah what they're going to do this is where the coup begins yeah the coup and it's funny that you say a coup because this is this is how it's portrayed i don't think really in the late bronze age a kingdom or one of these states would have been happy for a king to be away for 20 years but in this he is still the rightful king and it's a coup to try and retake control of his palace yeah from the main enemy who are who we should introduce now

the suitors absolutely and certainly in Odysseus's mind it's his rightful kingdom right we could argue about whether actually having been absent for 20 years it is anymore but uh but in his mind it certainly is so yeah what we've got is this kind of major thorn in Odysseus's side which are these hundred or so men who are

kind of sitting in his palace, eating all of his food, you know, kind of making their way through all of his livestock, impoverishing the palace, drinking his wine, behaving really, really badly and loutishly, and also kind of trying to force Penelope, his wife, to basically admit that Odysseus has died and that she's going to take a new husband and that that husband will be the king of Ithaca. So for Odysseus, this is a massive threat and he's got to make sure that he gets there in time before Penelope basically gives up the ghost and says, OK, I'm going to choose one of you.

And that is the climax that is fast approaching. And we'll get to that final part of the story right after this.

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Emily, we're getting towards the end now, the final big climax, the final big showdown. And I feel before we get to that, we have kind of mentioned the suitors as the key enemy for Odysseus on his homecoming. But do we hear much about who they actually are? Do they get a lot of character development in the Odyssey?

Yeah, well, we do get some of them who kind of really stick out and some of them are given sort of characterisation. So, yes, there are a lot of them, but one of them above all, I think, probably is the leader and that's Antinous. Antinous, yes. And that's quite fun because his name means noos, which is the nous bit at the end. That means thought or mind. And anti means against. So he's a sort of plotter against. He's someone who can think in response and against your every move. And that's obviously exactly what someone like Odysseus is going to be extremely threatened by because he's a bit cunning and crafty. So Antinous and all of the other men, they are a real threat to Odysseus. And that is basically what he, as he's gathering these various different allies and factions, he's

working out who is faithful to him and who is faithful to the suitors. Interesting. And is

Antinous, can you see that he's kind of, he's scheming at the same time? You mentioned that attempt to ambush Telemachus as well. So it's not very much he's just lousing about in the palace all the time. He's also very much thinking about how to make the next move. Absolutely. And the

intimidation of Telemachus at the beginning and then the outright kind of attempt to kill him is very much a part of this kind of escalation that the suitors are engaging in. Of course, that will end in the fact that Penelope does ultimately decide that she's going to have a marriage contest. So the suitors at that point think they've really, you know, their tactics of work, they've been kind of scaling up and they're about to marry Penelope in their minds.

And how had Penelope been keeping off the suitors up to that point?

Well, this is the famous trick that Penelope engages in. And we've been talking a lot about kind of the cunning of Odysseus, but I think it's important that we also recognise and acknowledge the immense cunning of Penelope, who is in many ways kind of a foil for Odysseus in terms of kind of just how smart she is and how she's able to kind of outwit the suitors. So we learn multiple times through the poem that Penelope has come up with this amazing ruse in order to kind of fend off the suitors. Because, you know, we're looking at a lot of years that she's had to kind of keep them at bay. And for multiple years, one of the things that she said she would do was that when she had finished weaving this funeral shroud for Laertes that's Odysseus's father and then at that point she would marry a suitor so she's given them an end point however what they don't know of course is that every night she is unweaving whatever she has woven during the day and in so doing for about four years she manages to fend off the suitors. Now it sounds I think for a modern audience like well why would they have believed that she would take four years to just kind of weave a funeral shroud. But in fact, these could have been very kind of intricate, complex garments. They could have had figurative scenes on them. So in fact, if Penelope was taking a lot of time, I think that's probably not something that would have surprised them. Of course, ultimately, they do find out. They find out, do they? They do find out. Well, it's one of the enslaved women, in fact,

who kind of passes the message on. And these enslaved women in the palace, are they very much portrayed as being in the team of the suitors? I mean, what do we know? Because, you know, whether it's sexual assault or are they being very much complicit with the suitors? Yeah I mean with the

enslaved women I think it's really difficult because in the way that they are being conceived of at the time in this poetry they are definitely being seen of as kind of the property of Odysseus and so for him that's the real issue is that when the suitors have kind of committed sexual assault against these women they've also kind of assaulted his property and for him that's a real issue. So in Odysseus's mind, they are absolutely team suitors, because at that point, they've kind of gone over to that side. In terms of what they were doing and what they thought, I think that's a lot harder to say. Whether they're given any agency in that, I very much doubt. There is one woman who's called Melantho, who is very much painted as kind of a woman who has gone over to the side of the suitors. But of course, again, in part, that's because Odysseus is very much thinking that way.

Good to cover the suitors in a bit more depth as we have now to kind of understand what Odysseus is arriving into. So can you paint that scene for us now? So he's got Telemachus by his side, Eumaeus as well. Are there any other allies with him as he enters the palace? What do we know about this particular part?

So there's another ally, a goatherd, called, I believe, Philoetius, who joins the crew on the way. And then you've got the good goatherd, the bad goatherd. Bad goatherd is Melanthius, who we already measured up. So we've got, you know, this sort of growing posse around Odysseus as he's going up to the palace. And then once he reaches the palace, there he's kind of disguised as a beggar. He comes in. He is very badly treated by the suitors, who are not pleased to see an old beggar kicking around the palace. In fact, they already have an old beggar at the palace who also doesn't want to have a rival. And so they get into a bit of a scuffle.

And so he arrives in the palace as an old beggar. For what purpose? Because otherwise you're thinking, well, why? Yeah, if you're in the eyes of the suitors, why has this old beggar just decided being welcomed into this palace?

Yeah, well, again, what he's doing is he's sort of closing the circle of where he's trying to get to, which is ultimately getting into the palace and getting to Penelope. So he's just inching closer and closer to his goal. It is obviously quite kind of tactically quite dangerous because he is being seen as kind of the very bottom rung of society. He gets things thrown at him. As I say, he ends up kind of having this scuffle with the other beggar whose name is Eros. So it's all not very dignified for Odysseus. But what kind of ends up happening is that then, you know, they step in and say, well, this isn't OK. And he ends up being drawn into that circle, that inner circle of the Ithacan palace. And that is the point where then Penelope orders that he has a bath. by Eurycleia, the old nursemaid.

And is this where he is recognised?

This is where he's recognised. And this is a moment which is so fascinating because he is running out of control in terms of his ability to control the recognition. Because all of the other ones, he was the one who said, you know, I'm Odysseus, revealing himself. But at this point where he has a footbath and Eurycleia, the old enslaved nurse, washes his feet and she sees a scar on his leg that she recognises from the young Odysseus that he had in a boar hunting accident when he was a boy. And she suddenly realises this is her old master. So does Eurycleia, is she team Odysseus or team suitors? Does she give him up? She's absolutely team Odysseus. I mean, she basically both breastfed Odysseus and she breastfed Telemachus. So she's been the wet nurse for both of the men in the family. So she is born and bred absolutely in that family. She is an enslaved person within the family, but we're given to understand that she is very much kind of a well treated enslaved woman within Odysseus' household. And she absolutely, she is overjoyed that Odysseus has come home. However, she kind of wants to shout it out. She's really, really excited about this. And Odysseus is very keen that she doesn't give the game away. And so he really is quite kind of stern with her. And, you know, old woman, you know, you cannot give this up. You cannot tell anybody. So Eurycleia is not even allowed to tell Penelope at this point that Odysseus is home.

But she has joined the team Odysseus alongside the swine Eumaeus, Philotius, Telemachus, so that the allies are growing. So does Odysseus have a name that he says, does he call himself anything as he's the beggar or does anyone even ask him his name?

So he has multiple different stories. And this is what we heard with the Cretan tales. So these are all of his little Cretan stories. In some of them, he is Cretan. In others, he's blown off course and lands on Crete. And so he has a different shifting identity each time, which is very Odyssey and that his disguise is kind of never really pinned down. It's not like he's going through this with one name. You know, he's different to everybody he talks to. And of course, the next person he talks to is, in fact, Penelope.

So this is like this is quite emotional. This is a poignant part of the story where he in disguise is talking to his wife.

It really is. And it's the first time that he's really kind of had a chat with her for 20 years. And they're sitting down talking together. Now, whether she recognises him or not, that's left open. And I think it's part of the beauty of the poetry that it is left open. It's up to you essentially to decide whether you think Penelope recognised him or not. She makes several sort of coy remarks. One that I particularly like is, oh, Bega, your hands look so similar to those of my husband. So, you know, whether she's sort of indicating that perhaps she does know that it's him. She mentions to him this dream that she's had, that she had some geese, 20 geese that she really, really loved. And then an eagle came in and killed them all. And she asks him to interpret it. And he interprets that Odysseus is coming home soon and he is going to slaughter the suitors.

Oh, and slaughter is... Oh, yeah.

It's been signposted that this is happening.

It's made clear that they're not going to be thrown out. They're going to be killed right here.

Absolutely. And he's told Penelope that that's happening.

And she's quite excited for that.

Well, you know, she basically says she wishes that it were true, but she's not sure if she can believe anymore that Odysseus is going to come home. And now this is the point where we're sort of hanging in uncertainty as the audience. We're not knowing, well, does Penelope actually even realise that she's sitting right opposite her husband? And at this kind of incredible point of narrative tension, she decides to set a contest for her hand in marriage.

And right. So it sounds like spurred on by this hope that Odysseus will return. It's the creation of this contest. Why?

Well, is it the hope that he will return or is it the fact that actually she's been faced up with Odysseus giving her this prediction that Odysseus will come home? And she just absolutely just says, well, actually, no, I don't believe it. It can't happen. Maybe she's completely given up. We don't know. But it is rather brilliant that it happens at the time that Odysseus is in the palace and he is right there, ready to go. And she sets up this contest.

Because what is this contest?

Well, we've had a lot of debate about this in scholarship, about what exactly is happening. but what she does is she sets up a row of axes and in that row of axes there are at some point some holes now probably this is somewhere around either the socket or it's somewhere kind of in the centre of the axe we don't need to be too specific about it but there are some holes and at the same time Odysseus has a bow a really kind of old heroic style bow and that only he used to be able to string you had to be really really strong to be able to string these these old bows. And so she's saying that whoever will be able to string his bow and will be able to shoot an arrow through those axes, through those holes, will be her husband. And so the, I guess,

the ambiguity there is...

whether she's doing that to find if someone could be as good as Odysseus or is it the hope that Odysseus will be among them as the a la prophet aka the prophecy and will be able to show it

through the wielding of the bow itself. Exactly so is she replacing him or is she giving him a chance

to prove himself? Interesting okay and do we get to that contest straight away or is there more mingling of old beggar Odysseus with the suitors so we get even more of a bad vibe of

the suitors yeah so there's plenty of kind of bad vibe of the suitors to make sure that we know that they've really earned it they deserve what's coming yeah no absolutely um but yeah so we we then sort of move up as the kind of you know narrative is kind of the narrative tension is ramping up we move into that contest uh we've been positioned the suitors definitely the bad guys we've got Odysseus in place in the palace we've got Penelope setting up the contest of the bow she's been told Odysseus might come home and now everyone's waiting and watching what's going to

happen next we'll continue this chat in a moment right after this small break

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Bringing back into the kernels of truth of the real Bronze Age world in which this story is set, do we have any idea, like in the late Bronze Age time, this time of the Mycenaeans, that archery contests or things like that were popular? That might be like the origins of one

of these great stories? Yeah, well, there are several different theories about what might have been going on here. One that's really interesting is that we do see some kind of visual evidence from the period of sort of axe heads similar to kind of what is being described here with holes with kind of archery contests at them. There is visual suggestion that that might be happening. So potentially there might be a kind of a kernel of truth there. At the same time, we do see multiple different wall paintings of archery happening on walls, people going out on hunts and these kinds of things. So, you know, it's definitely something that is definitely not

beyond uh doubt and this is all happening in kind of the main area of the palace are we thinking the kind of the main meeting area where the suitors are all gathered yeah probably sort of the the courtyard that's at the heart of the palace yeah and so how does the contest go who

steps up first yeah well it's really interesting because of course the suitors are delighted by this because they think you know as we said for them they think they're winning uh okay maybe their ambush on telemachus didn't work but you know we've got we've got an in we've got a chance and they definitely think they can do it. So we've got, of course, Antinous, the leader of the suitors, who has his go. He goes first to see. I'm pretty sure he goes first, yeah. But he definitely is keen to make sure that he can prove that he would be able to be a replacement for Odysseus, but he cannot string the bow. So he can't even do that kind of first step to be able to string the bow, let alone be able to shoot it through the axes. And then we get one after the other, we get all of the suitors kind of trying and failing and each of them just can't do it. And finally, and this is interesting, Telemachus wants to have a go. So Penelope in Odysseus' son, just on the edge of manhood. And it's really interesting because here we're seeing a replacement for Odysseus in a different way. We're seeing a son who could potentially replace the father. And he steps up and he almost strings the bow. Oh, interesting. Yeah. And it's a nod from... Odysseus that stops him from doing it. And is it also this idea of Telemachus, of course, he's not doing it to marry his mum. It's to protect his mum. Exactly. And to prove himself

as sort of the natural successor to Odysseus. The next king. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I think it's definitely a sign that Telemachus is on the edge of that point where he would be able to stand side by side with Odysseus and claim the kingship. Of course, the fact that he doesn't do it then sets the scene for Odysseus disguised as the beggar to step in and say well can I have a go

but sorry quickly on because that also makes sense because earlier in the story he's conversing with Athena she's saying are you going to be quite like I see good things in you for the future like there is potential here so once again is that that that that motive that portrayal continues that there is that Odysseus like he is going to reach the heights of his father but not quite now it's still Odysseus' time to shine.

It is indeed. And we've had moments also when he met with Helen, Helen of Sparta, Helen of Troy, where she said, you look so like Odysseus, you know. So he's definitely being seen as following in Odysseus' footsteps. However, in order to kind of get on dad's side, there is something that he's got to do. And that's pretty horrific, which is the slaughter of the suitors. And he takes part in that. And it's almost his initiation into manhood, into the kingship of Ithaca, is if you're prepared to do this, then, you know, this is what you've got to do.

All right. So Telemachus just doesn't string the bow. And who steps up next?

An old beggar.

An old beggar.

And everyone's surprised. The suitors are sneering. Nobody thinks that an old beggar would have a chance of stringing the bow, let alone being Penelope's husband. However, he persuades them to let him have a go. Telemachus steps forward, says, no, let him have it. and he reaches for the bow and he strings it like a bard stringing a lyre. He sounds the string of the bow and it sings out like a bird. An extraordinary beautiful moment where Odysseus the bard has now become Odysseus the archer. He picks up the bow and as he does so the disguise sheds from him. He becomes Odysseus once more and he shoots the arrow through the axes and the slaughter of the suitors begins is antinous the first to get the bullet or should i say the arrow uh he is certainly one of the first i can't remember if he's the very first but he is certainly the person that odysseus has his sights set on um and at this point we then go straight into the action of um needing to get rid of the suitors and and as morbid as it is describe the

slaughter so what do we hear from there because i can presume for this part of the odyssey it's not just, and then he killed them all. I'm sure there's a bit more than that. No, there is more

of it. I mean, you know, these are epics that were born in kind of glorifying warfare and preserving the memory of heroes who did some really bloody deeds. And I mean, if anyone's read any of the Iliad, you know, you'll know that there's plenty of kind of, you know, brains and blood and guts. So absolutely, we're given quite a lot of detail. So what Odysseus does is, remember, he's already got Eurycleia on his side. Eurycleia is an important player in this because she, as well as being the kind of enslaved nurse she's also the housekeeper she's got the keys to the storerooms so she's able to lock the doors so what she does is she's taken out all of the weapons from the hall and she then locks the doors so the women are out the men are in and they cannot escape and what ensues is essentially a bloodbath where the suitors completely unarmed are just completely annihilated by Odysseus and Terminus

and can you imagine they're quite drunk they're quite drunk as well

Yeah, they're drunk. You know, they've been also kind of lazing around in Ithaca for 20 years. They're not sort of battle hardened war veterans like Odysseus is. He's also got Telemachus on his side. He's got Eimaeus. He's got Philoetius. And so they all just kind of have at it.

And by the end, it's just blood and guts everywhere.

By the end, the hall is running with blood. And in fact, it's one of the kind of really awful scenes is that that needs to be cleared up. and who is going to clear it up but the enslaved women and these are the women who have been sleeping with or raped by the suitors and they then have to clean up the bodies they have to scrub the blood from the halls they have to get the smell out and after that Odysseus decides that it's time for Telemachus to step up to be a man and he has to punish them what's the punishment he takes 12 of the enslaved women who were the ones who were deemed to have been traitors with the suitors and they are strung up by their neck on nooses across the courtyard and killed

wow that's the part of the story that you don't well someone who's been told the odyssey will probably not quite remember as much as the suitors that that grim after note and that's telemachus and it's telemachus you and it says you've got to do that exactly

Thank you. There is, to me, an element here of hazing, of, you know, if you're going to be the king, you've got to be ready to do these kinds of things. This is Odysseus' vision of kingship. This is what getting home means. I think we really tend to forget that. We tend to think it's a kind of romantic arrival home and, you know, the reunion with Penelope. Before that happens, there is an absolute bloodbath and there is the hanging of 12 enslaved women.

Is anyone spared?

So there are some people who are spared. You've got, for instance, Eumaeus and Philoetius who were on the right side. So they're all fine. There are some of the suitors who try and beg for mercy and not even them get away. So it is a really kind of thorough cleansing, almost a kind of how can we return to what it looked like before Odysseus left for the Trojan War? How can we get them all out of our house? I think the scrubbing of the floors of the palace is very symbolic of that.

just everything out and is it penelope then sees her beloved odysseus after so many years he's still got a lot of explaining to do let's be fair um in the middle of this blood-soaked room

does she come running down towards him well she doesn't so it's you know penelope we've talked about she's sort of just as clever as her husband just as canny and so she wants to take her time to work out who this potentially murderous new suitor is. Eurycleia comes running up and says, Odysseus is home. You know, you should be so overjoyed. And she says, well, you know, I've got to make sure. And she comes down and she gives Odysseus a test of her own. So we've had already kind of the contest of the bow, but now she's got her own little test to make sure that this really is Odysseus.

And what's that test?

Well, the test is around their marital bed. So the story is that Odysseus, before he went to Troy, made a bed for the husband and wife in an olive tree that grew through the palace of Ithaca and that he hollowed out part of the trunk and made a bed for them and what Penelope does is that she says to Odysseus well you know we've made up a bed for you and moved the bed out of my room for you and he is outraged and he says who moved my bed now obviously this is a symbol of the fact that Penelope might have been unfaithful because if that bed that he made for them for their marisol union could have been moved maybe she's been unfaithful and she realizes at the point where he gets outraged that the bed could have been moved and he tells the story of the olive

tree she realizes it's him i don't really feel he's got a leg to stand on on that is that is that is that left um ambiguous is that not revealed whether she was faithful or not

it's left ambiguous yeah so what they do and there's a sort of moment then of reunion where they get together in that bed that he made for them and they tell their stories of everything that happened and interestingly Odysseus tells her about Calypso and Circe but he doesn't tell

her about Nausicaa so he misses some things out she's the princess of the the I'm not going to say the word again of the Phaeacians yes she is and she's the one interestingly who was potentially

the nearest miss in terms of him not only being unfaithful but potentially settling down because they have this kind of sort of weird initiated courtship almost um and he doesn't tell her about now to the cast so there's some interesting sort of storytelling going on I mean Odysseus cannot

stop telling his stories can he okay and you think that's the end of the Odyssey but it's not quite because these suitors I know I haven't got much time so I can't do too much but but these suitors of course they're still the most prominent figures in the land and around it's not just them they have their own families they have their own supporters they do and so slaughtering all these people it's going to have repercussions and isn't that the case with Odysseus? It is so you might

expect the odyssey to end on this kind of happy note you know reunion marriage bed reunited all of that but it actually ends on a really kind of troubled problematic note where essentially what we're seeing is almost a civil war about to break out in Ithaca because as you say you know he has just murdered 108 of the you know young men from the island and the surrounding islands and they have their families they have their supporters all of them come rushing in and say well what what the hell are you doing just killing all of our men folk let alone of course the fact that all of the Ithacans that he took on the ship with him to Troy have not come back. There's other that

there's also that part where all these soldiers you took to Troy. Yeah so they're really gearing

up for a kind of war that's about to break out on Ithaca and at that point as Odysseus is rallying as Telemachus is rallying his aged father Laertes at that point Athena the goddess who we have seen kind of time and time again, coming to almost pull the narrative of the Odyssey back into order. She comes down again and she stops the fighting. So we've got a sort of temporary God-induced pause. Whether that would be enough to stop all of the kind of conclusions, sort of unraveling, from what Odysseus has done. I'm not sure whether that would be, but at least for some moment at the end of the Odyssey, things hang in the balance.

Things hang in the balance. But Penelope and Odysseus are back together again. And obviously we talked earlier about Agamemnon and Clytemnestra and how that is not a marriage made in heaven. Quite frankly, it's the opposite. It's a nice contrast though, isn't it? One of actually kind of a marriage that works between a hero and a queen compared to the Agamemnon and Clytemnestra and so on. But that is the end of the Odyssey. That's the return, the homecoming, that slightly troubled note at the end.

Well, the troubled note and also the fact that Odysseus, halfway through the Odyssey, was given a prophecy that he was going to go on another voyage again, which he tells Penelope when they have their little chat in the night. He says, you know, by the way, this isn't the end. I'm going to be off on another journey. So not only have we kind of had a very troubled closure, But also we've got the opening to a future journey.

And do we know what that journey will be? Is it revealed in any other Greek sources what actually was supposed to happen after the end of the Odyssey?

We do. Yeah. So, well, first of all, we know because Tiresias gives him the prophecy of what he's going to do. So he says he's going to wander with an oar on his back until he gets to a place where men do not know the sea. And they think that the oar on his back is a winnowing fan. So that's kind of the first prediction. He's going to go on this long land voyage. But the other thing that happens, which is really interesting, is how Odysseus dies. And this is on another journey that he goes on. And he ends up accidentally meeting the son that he and Circe had together. And that son doesn't realise that this is his father, unwittingly wounds him with a poison-tipped spear. And that is how Odysseus dies.

I didn't know that. It's all interesting.

Teleganus is the name of the son. and this was the subject of another epic that came after called the telegony so so we think of the

iliad and the odyssey but the real the real you know the hard nuts that the people who know it the best know well actually it's the iliad the odyssey and then the telegony well absolutely

and all of the others the aethiopis the iliupersis the cypria there are so many that we just don't have we've got two of them there was a whole collection of these epics gosh so why of all of

them. Today, of course, we've got coming very soon, maybe now released, we have Christopher Nolan's epic The Odyssey. Why do you think of all the stories, The Odyssey, it resonates so much

with us even today? The Odyssey is a story you can take on many different levels. You can take it on the kind of surface level of kind of swashbuckling adventure, the fantastical journey, sort of the piratical nature of what he does on that level it's just pure enjoyment but I think on a deeper level there are themes here that resonate with us as humans themes about what it means to be someone who acts within society within their community whether that is someone who's trying to uphold them and get the men home as Odysseus does or someone who ends up ultimately destroying them what it is to be within a family what it is to be within a home these are themes that I think resonate with us all and Odysseus what he ultimately is trying to do is he is trying to get back into human society make his way in the world and if that's not something that all of us understand that journey to try and understand who you are how you make your way in the world I

think the Odyssey resonates with us all. It's also how to be respectful when you're in the house of someone else how to treat your guests as well I guess are those other big things? Absolutely

Thinking about kind of the right codes of conduct with others and that idea of xenia, that idea of hospitality, guest friendship, those ties that knit us together as a community of humans and how fragile they are as well, how easily they break apart. I think it's also a warning, right? That sort of very troubled ending of the Odyssey is also a sense that we need to take care and we need to think these things through. And the Odyssey is a beautiful prism to think through those kinds of issues.

Emily, this has been truly epic. 24 books of the odyssey covered from start to finish what a story couldn't have asked for a better guest to talk through it with as well last but certainly not least you have written a book recently which covers several really important figures in the story of the odyssey and their links not just to the real world but their importance in the mythology absolutely yeah

i mean i'm really passionate about thinking about why these stories matter now and and why we should keep turning back to them and my book mythica is about the real women who stand behind these myths and who might have made up the kind of the tapestry of the late bronze age world who might have kind of prefigured figures like helen like penelope like nausicaa ariti who we've talked about calypso cersei what was the reality of the world behind that and how did they sort of trickle down into the legends that ended up making homer's odyssey so you know it's something that what's fascinating

about it is that yes there was a history that was standing behind the odyssey but it's also something that we've been lost because we haven't been thinking and talking about the women and what we can do now because we're interested in those stories again because you know we're looking back we're turning back constantly to these tales we can start to ask new questions and for me that's what's so exciting about the odyssey you can keep coming back and asking more fantastic and of course

this isn't the last time that i'm going to see you because next we're going to watch christopher nolan's odyssey and we're going to record one more episode our thoughts about it are you excited i am

really looking forward to it i am also looking forward to dissecting it together emily it just

goes for me to say thank you so much for coming on the podcast today thank you so much for having me

Transcription by CastingWords A podcast by Le Colle School of Jewellery Arts, supported by Van Cleef and Arpels.

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