Muse

Hello, Odyssey fans. I'm Jesse. And I'm Bob. Welcome to the official Adventures in Odyssey podcast. Over the past year or so, you may have noticed a trend in Odyssey. There's always a lot going on in Odyssey, but there have been a lot of hearts changing lately.

Since just last November, we've heard salvation stories for Wyatt Perkins, Carla Perkins, Ron Perkins, Jules Kendall, Buck Melsner, and Renee Carter.

There have been more salvations in the last year than any other year in Odyssey history. A lot of major character development and a lot of deeply moving personal moments. So today, we're talking about what happened behind the scenes, leading to what the team has been calling a season of salvation.

We brought together three people who helped shape these stories from the very beginning. Showrunner Marshall Younger, co-creator Phil Lawler, and writer-director Kathy Buchanan.

I'm really looking forward to this conversation, Jess. So let's get started.

Well, these are always some of my favorite podcasts because we have our writers gathered together again. So Kathy, Phil Marshall, welcome. Good to be here.

Thanks. Good to be here. I do need to apologize if you're hearing any banging. I'm having my roof redone today. So if you're hearing stuff raining down on me, don't worry. It's just the roofers. It's not, you know.

Not doing any carpentry over there.

Yeah.

He's not banging his head against his keyboard again.

I'm not like, well, I do that too, but not today.

All right. Well, there have been a lot of people coming to know the Lord lately on the Adventures in Odyssey show. So I have to ask, how long ago did you decide to bring each of these characters to salvation? Because I think, let's see, Wyatt, Carla, Ron, Jules, Buck, Renee, that's a lot of people. Did you ever consider not having any of them make a decision to follow Christ?

Well, some of these characters have had spiritual journeys that have lasted over a decade. Years, yeah. In real time. Buck and Jules have been on a spiritual journey since they were first introduced. Was it like 12, 13 years ago, something like that?

Yeah, Renee pretty much too. Right, from the very beginning. Her whole introduction was that way and all the way through. Pretty much every episode she has was about her beliefs and her salvation.

Yeah, I think we brought all of those characters in thinking about what could be their spiritual journey. Now for the Perkins, we didn't necessarily do that because we brought them in not necessarily as unbelievers but as a military family. Right. That's what we wanted to represent.

But they were first, weren't they, Marshall? They were first to be saved.

Wyatt was the first of this group. Right. Yeah. So making him non-believers was just a choice that we made. Wyatt becoming a Christian was a pretty early decision, and then the parents came later. We didn't even know. I didn't even know who Ron was, really, Ron the father, because he was overseas and he was only on video. But maybe you guys can address more about the other characters.

I don't in my head my personal thought when with Buck and Jules I mean because those are the characters I was most invested in I for the longest time felt like okay we're gonna take Buck along these steps to become a Christian but not Jules and um and so I think it was more as we developed her character that I felt like okay I can actually see her taking that path So and even talking to the actors, Shona and Robbie, about like where they saw their characters going spiritually, it's kind of funny because Robbie saw Buck becoming a Christian but not Jules and Shona saw Jules becoming a Christian but not Buck because they were starting this relationship and they're going to be like, oh, they're going to be each believing different things. and how's that going to work? And so I feel like it was within the last couple years that we even started talking about both of them becoming Christians because for a while it was like, well, one of them probably will, one of them probably won't. But then just the way their characters almost kind of wrote themselves into it.

With Renee, her story started right from the get-go. I mean, we wanted to introduce a character who did not believe, who had walked away from belief and did not believe at all, and then follow her journey to belief. How did that happen? with her. And especially since in her first episode, she says, math will save the world. And she has a conflict there with Witt, not a major conflict, but Witt kind of says, okay, well, we'll see about that. And so from then on, it was very purposeful. I think virtually every episode that Renee has been in has been something dealing with her spiritual journey. There may have been a couple of where she's not the featured character, where she just kind of appears and does whatever that episode required of her. But every episode where she's the feature character, it's about her coming to Christ.

in one way or another, or not. It was always a dilemma, will she or won't she? So that was kind

of planned from the beginning with her character. Yeah. Now, every year the writers go off site and get coordinated. I mean, nothing happens in isolation. So this was a decision to have all these characters within a very relatively short period of time come to the Lord after more than a decade of having a character in the show except Christ. So explain what the reason was that all these kind of came together at the same time.

Well, one is not a very romantic answer. It's a logistical question because we were coming up to the end of CDs. We knew that that was no longer going to be an avenue for people to listen to the shows. So we felt like we needed to wrap up all those storylines before that happened. It would be like having a TV show So every episode was on TV, and then they say, well, the season finale is going to be at movie theaters, so you've got to go to movies, you know, something like that. And so that was one very practical reason why we felt like we needed to wrap up these storylines. But also, we have some plans in the future that will challenge these new Christians in different ways, which we thought was an important and interesting subject to take on.

Well, let me rephrase that. So we had challenges – we have some stuff coming up that's going to challenge these characters, and we wanted the characters to have something to fight back with. Okay, so I mean that – I don't mean to put words in your mouth, Marshall, but the idea behind this was that real severe challenges are going to be coming up for these characters. And if they don't have God on their side, if they don't have Christ on their side, if they're not walking in the faith, it's going to be – it would have been very, very bad.

I think there's also an aspect of, and maybe it's just me because I'm a sensitive little soul, but, well, I think I am. Maybe it's just me, but as I get to know and love these characters, I want that for them. You know, when I have a distance between them, it's like, oh, you know, like, it's not as important to me. But then as I become more endeared to them, I'm like, oh, I really want them to become a Christian.

I think we see that in our audience, too, because I think they ask for it. Like, I remember this whole thing about we want Rodney Rathbone to get saved because they see him just not being so lost. And so they empathize with him and say, well, we kind of need a weird bully.

We do hear that quite a bit about Jay as well. Yeah. And that's a much more back and forth kind of we see some progress and then he sort of slips back into some old habits again.

The interesting thing about the nature of all of these questions, though, is we're in control of these characters. And when you think about that and you start saying, now, I'm not trying to say that we're in the place of God, but when you think about how God looks at us in a similar manner of the way we look at these characters and we decide who's going to do what, where they're going to go and how this is going to happen. And for me, that's the most profound thing of all of this for me. It's just like, wow, we're trying to give these characters a sense of freedom, free will, if you will, in the way that the scenes play out. And yet we still know what the outcome is going to be. And that's like, wow, that's mind-blowing. Because in terms of the way God looks at us, it's the same thing.

Right. And to our audience, these are real people, real characters. Yeah. And as the Bible says, right, I mean, was it 1 Timothy 2, 4? It's like God desires that all people be saved, right? That's why Jesus came is so all people could be saved. Make that decision, again, free will, to make that decision and pray to accept Christ as Savior. And then the timing's different for all of us. The Holy Spirit works in our lives different ways. And so each of these characters and their journey to salvation, there are all these detours, right? Bumps and surprises. And so as you wrote them, what other steps could these characters have taken? Because like you said, Phil, you know, you guys aren't really playing God, but you guys are the writers of these characters. So what other plots might have been considered an abandon as you brought all these characters to faith?

It feels like Renee went through a lot of imaginations as to what brought her. Phil, maybe you could address that.

One of the things that I remember from the meetings and from talking, writers' meetings and talking about these particular story arcs was how I personally didn't want Renee to have the, I don't want to say typical. Nobody has a typical salvation story. Everybody has a unique salvation story. But some are the result of a huge event, something that happens, like Jules.

know, what happened with her. But some are an ongoing process. And I wanted to kind of reflect that with Renee. I wanted to reflect the idea that this is the culmination of a long series of events and series of situations that she has put herself into, that Wit has put her in, and just the environment of Odyssey and Wit's End and Campbell College, all of those things together have culminated in her saying, I don't have really a reason to not do this anymore. Hers was a decidedly, pointedly intellectual journey. That was her big obstacle. It was very much like something like C.S. Lewis went through where he said, I got into a motorcycle sidecar. When we started off the journey, I didn't believe in God. When we ended up, I did. And there was no great aha moment. There was no great flash. There was no great. It was just thinking about it and going through it all. And I thought, wow, that appealed to me to give that to Renee. Now, she does go through her crisis moment, but she goes through her crisis moments was still more intellectual. It was more mathematical. And then, of course, what most people do, which is try to run away. I got to get out of here. I don't want this. I don't want this to happen. I don't want this to happen. But at the end, she has to say, I don't have any good reason to not accept Christ anymore.

Yeah. And, you know, Phil, you did a really good job really out of the gate with having an emotional element to that. It wasn't completely head-based because she had the dog, and there was an emotional disappointment with the way that God, in her mind, did not come through for her. And I think that you set it up very nicely because a lot of times there is that catalyst.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think all of these characters, if you look at them, all of these characters that we've gone through, Wyatt, Carla, Ron, Jules, Buck, Renee, all of them had to reach that crisis moment. But that crisis moment looks different for everybody. Yeah, right. It's not the same thing for everybody. And that's what's nice.

And at the same time, I remember Marshall bringing up, and this is years ago at a writer's meeting, about like the steps of salvation and how we're all about the step from belief to – or non-belief to belief when you say the prayer. And yet there's all these steps that lead up to that step, to that moment. And there's all these steps after that step. but we're you know and so we can't just focus on that step it's like what are all the the things that we're doing that are leading up to it and i know for like for buck i mean well before he became a christian although when we knew that we wanted him to become a christian we would start introducing things about his need for a father and his desire for a father and how that relates to how god is a father to him and his adoption story because god has adopted us and singing amazing grace with Jules and how that impacted him. And so we're trying to put these, to build these steps, to build up to that big step, you know, along the way and calling back to that when

that time came. Now, as far as Wyatt is concerned, I just, I love what a childlike faith Wyatt came at this with. You know, a life with Jesus just made sense to him. He wasn't going to overthink it. And I also wanted Wyatt to be the driving force behind his family's decision. I don't know that we needed a major situation with mom and dad because it was Wyatt that brought them to a point of salvation because they saw the change in his life. I love that idea because the youngest member of the family having such an impact on his parents because that happens. It does. Absolutely true that kids can lead their families in this direction. I've seen it happen. So why is it

important to dramatize salvation experiences? And how did you attempt to avoid some of the traps that so many Christian scriptwriters fall into when they're so eager to get a character saved

that it feels forced or preachy? Well, to answer your first question, I think it would be a massive oversight to teach biblical principles and not talk about how we hand over our lives to the ones who taught those principles or created those principles. Like I was saying before salvation moments are really hard to depict because they're so personal um but i i think one of the advantages that we have is is that we don't have to get it done in in half an hour we don't have to get because we have we have a show we don't have to get done in an hour and a half i like like we were saying buck it took him 13 years in real time to make and so i think that you know we just showing the steps as kathy was talking about showing the steps of how and and with renee we every show was about her getting a little bit closer you know and making new decisions and new choices. And I remember Phil coming to me and, you know, and I asked him, okay, how many shows until you think Renee is ready, essentially? And he said, I think I need like three more. I need her to do this and then this, and then I think she's ready.

Part of our thinking as we were processing, we went back to the parable of the sower a lot and just different ways that the gospel.

impacts people and how sometimes the birds pick it up right away or sometimes it takes root but it doesn't grow and like people react to the gospel message in different ways and and we really want to see the different ways because we really want you to connect with our characters and see yourselves in these characters and just like our characters come to the Lord and see God in different ways and hear from God in different ways we know our audience does the same thing And so some people out there are the intellectual Rene's and over, you know, thinking through things and does this logically make sense? And some people are the Bucks. And I don't know if I can trust people and am I lovable? And can I really believe this, that somebody loves me this much? Or people are the jewels and are like, I'm pretty good at my life and I know what I'm doing and I love living life and I don't want anything to get in the way of that. You know, I mean, all our listeners are different, just like all our characters are different. And so we wanted to show how each of these people find God from where they are.

Okay, guys, there is one prominent character who didn't become a Christian this season, Bridget Perkins. Why didn't you have her come to faith with the rest of the family? And I say this mainly to you, Marshall, because you've been behind the driving creative force behind the Perkins family. What can you tell us about your future plans for her without spoiling anything?

Yeah. Well, to answer your first question, it feels like Bridget is pretty far away from a decision like this at this point. She's not one for examining her heart or doing any deep questioning of her life choices at this point. She's had a lot of mountains and valleys and she's gone back and forth a little bit. But I think she's still kind of resistant to the idea because she doesn't want to examine her life. But more importantly than that, I think there's something interesting to explore with her now that her entire family has made this decision and she hasn't. She might feel like an outsider. She might not relate to her family anymore. She may not communicate things to her family anymore. In that case, you know, where will Bridget go? Who will she trust? So, you know, it could be some drama there and we could explore some important themes about influence and family. And the other reason is, like I was talking about with Rodney Rathbun, we needed a weird bully. Well, we don't want to get rid of all of our non-Christians. We've got things that we can teach. Yeah. And so, you know, we did get a lot of people saved, but we want to hold on to those people who still have things to learn about salvation.

I was really intrigued by the episode that we had in the club late in season 12, Being Real, with Bridget and Jules and the two of them. all they were doing was sitting in the studio kind of talking about their ways of looking at the world and, and, and how they were not seeing things exactly the same way, but, but it gave an opportunity for Jules to be challenged to share her faith. Right. Because Bridget and Jules were

in the same place essentially. Uh, and then Jules changed. Right. And, uh, and, and, and Bridget doesn't know, really know how to, uh, how to react to that. Um, and, and so that was that whole,

that whole conversation was about that. That was a great episode. Yeah. Thank you. All right. So So you guys already mentioned some challenges coming up for some of these characters who are experiencing that new life in Christ. So without giving any spoilers, which I know you guys won't do, how do you see these characters moving on from here? What's next?

Well, one thing that I talked with Marshall about, you and I had a conversation about this just a couple of weeks ago, maybe a month ago or so. And that was, I really wanted to make sure that now that we got them in the kingdom, we don't just kind of go away and pretend like their lives are going to be wonderful and rosy and rainbows and sunshine. It's not. I think quite frequently, after you become a Christian, that's when Satan attacks the hardest in many ways. And so, especially for Renee, I would really like to see her go through some, without spoiling anything, some real hardships. And I think that's where I would like to see at least Renee go.

Yeah, I think we're all in agreement that we don't want this because it's not true when we don't want people to think that, oh, you become a Christian and life is great or you make all the right decisions suddenly or you're perfect in your daily devotions. Like, I mean, it's you're still you and you're still flawed and you can have a change of heart and sometimes you get that feeling and sometimes it goes away. And so I think that's going to be the interesting thing to see how each of these characters, just like they all come to Christ differently, they're all going to grow in Christ differently. And they're all going to struggle differently with certain things. And it'll be interesting to see where that all goes.

Before we bring this episode in for a close, just have to ask, you know, as you were writing and thinking through these stories, did you really learn anything about your own salvation or the salvation process?

I think one of the most profound things as we mapped out, like, how do people become a Christian and how is this character going to find God? And like specifically. say with Buck where we're trying to find, okay, he's dealing with his family or he's dealing with trust or he's dealing with the song that he's singing in church or whatever it is, is just how, and like Phil said, we're not God, but I think it gives me an idea of how God really orchestrates our lives and what he needs because he wants us to become who we're meant to be and to be in a deeper relationship with him. And so there's certain things in our life that are going to happen that at the time feel very difficult or don't make sense or are challenging or are crossroads that we have to deal with that is really ultimately to bring us closer to what he's written for us or what he's writing for us. So I don't know. For me, that's always just been a point where I like – I appreciate who God is and how he writes the story.

Yeah, yeah. Well, guys, thank you all for being here with us in the studio, Marshall and Kathy. And, of course, Phil, by phone, having some work done on his roof today. Yeah, I wasn't sure if it was the roofers or if God was coming to call for me, you know. He was going to knock on my roof. Well, it's a pleasure having you all with us. Thanks so much, and hopefully we'll do this again soon. Yeah, I'll be there.

You know, just in that conversation, we had more than 100 years of collective Odyssey writing experience.

And that experience shows. Each of those salvation stories was so intentional, and each was very different from the others.

Right. There wasn't a formula. Each character's journey reflected who they were, what they experienced, where they were emotionally and spiritually.

If you want to hear or re-hear any of those salvation stories, Express Salvation, The Difference, On the Edge, Value of a Buck, or Face the Truth, they are all available in the club. We'll have links from this podcast. And hey, speaking of the club, Bob, what's going on there? Well, we've got a brand new episode coming up April 23rd. It's called What's the Catch? So, what's the story? Oh, Chris.

Now on the Adventures in Odyssey Club, Bridget starts classes at Campbell College. And a familiar face is waiting. Hi, Candy.

I need you to do something for me. Candy has plans to use Bridget's connection to Renee. You want to bond with her, right? You should definitely ask her to be your mentor. Isn't that a little manipulative? If you're doing it right. You said you were looking for volunteers for a fundraiser? I am.

How will Bridget navigate these tricky relationships? Find out now, only on the Adventures in Odyssey Club.

Again, that's April 23rd in the club. If you're not already a member, this is a great time to join and explore all the stories we talked about today and so many more. And don't forget that you get a free subscription to Clubhouse Magazine, too. It's the official magazine of Adventures in Odyssey. That's all for this edition of the official Adventures in Odyssey podcast, a presentation of Focus on the Family. Visit us online or join the club at adventuresinodyssey.com. Or call us at 1-800-AFAMILY. I'm Bob. And I'm Jesse, reminding you that with God in your life, every day is an adventure.