Muse

I'm standing there, like I said, the adrenaline's starting to pump, and suddenly, and it startled me, because it was so distinct and so clear, I hear, you know, a voice saying, there's nothing to fear, we're not going to harm you. And I go, like, who said that? And I actually turned to look at it.

Well, that's like the standard script, too. Like, there's nothing to fear, we're not here to harm you, right?

Yeah. And it was so clear. And people have asked me, well, was it a male voice or female voice? I'd say it was non-gender specific. It was just a voice, not high, not low, just a voice. And it wasn't like you would hear your thoughts. It was like a voice in my head, though, because there was nobody else there. I mean, there was no place else I could have heard it. and that startled me and what the adrenaline turned immediately and I remember to this day and when I think about I can still kind of feel it was like if someone stuck a needle in my arm and shot me up with drugs there was a sudden euphoria where I felt oh there's nothing wrong this is great oh it was so pronounced i knew it was artificial right at that moment i go like i you know i didn't know where it came from or how it got to me but it was just like really strong very pronounced very drug-like and i'm looking at the object i think now looking back on what i was looking at through that was a lensing effect around a craft of some type and that's why i'm looking actually behind it those magnified stars are coming from behind it there was a light shift you know lens magnification thing it's just warping the space around it and that's why i couldn't see a craft but i believe there was probably a craft there inside that corona and it just zipped off to the west i would describe it like in the old days when you had a television with vacuum tubes in it you shut off and everything would just go to like a little white dot and zip that's exactly what it did

welcome i'm here with alan levine alan welcome Thank you, Sean. Thank you for inviting me. Yeah, I'm glad to finally have you on. So for the audience, if you could just briefly talk very briefly about your background, and then we'll kind of get started with how you got into this wide world of UAPs.

Well, to be relevant, I actually cut my teeth at APRO, which is the Aerial Phenomenal Research Organization, which was the premier research and investigation organization, which was founded in 1952. I started working with them in 1974 and worked with them until 1980. Later on, I went to law enforcement and intelligence. The last 15 years before I retired, I was working with the Joint Terrorist Task Force and later DHS as a terrorist liaison specializing in counter surveillance detection. I taught the Joint Terrorist Task Force at San Francisco PD and Oakland PD. I was assigned to the private sector to assist in safeguarding large institutions and convention centers. And I worked from the 9-11 incident. I was in Washington, D.C. and then came back and for the next 15 years worked in that auspices. Nothing related to UFOs at that time. After I retired, well, I had heard two video history of APRO that Richard Dolan did. And he mused in the video, why didn't anyone take over APRO when Jim Lorenzen and Coral Lorenzen retired? And so I contacted, I said, well, it was supposed to be me. And I explained to him what happened and why I didn't, you know, succeed them in that vein. But I really feel, you know, obligated to them to help forward, you know, research and investigation and for disclosure going forward. And I've worked since that time to do that. I've worked closely with Richard. I was the illustrator for his three-volume history of USOs, which is a topic that's becoming more discussed now i did over 200 illustrations for that book and i'm a constant contributor on

his members-only website, done a number of other interviews on other podcasts as well. My thrust today is no longer to prove the phenomenon or UFOs are real, but to actually bring light to those that are trying to suppress this and who have stolen this technology and are hoarding it and purveying its wider use for the betterment of mankind.

Now, you had an incident yourself, right? Two, actually. Two incidents. Can you talk through where was that, when did it happen, and what happened in those incidents?

Sure. The first time was in 1974. Both these incidents occurred in Tucson, Arizona. The first one was on July 18th, 1974, at 7.30 p.m. And I lived, for people that are familiar with Tucson, Arizona, I lived in the geographical center of the city at Speedway in Alvernon, was a major cross section there, lived in a townhouse there. And I was going to pick up my fiance, and I would always leave the house specifically at 730. I was extremely prompt and knew exactly what time to leave to go pick her up, and we'd go out. So I was leaving the house specifically at 7.30. I was exiting the parking lot of the townhouses, traveling the driveway pointed north to the Catalina Mountains. And at 7.30 at night, the sun is just beginning to set. And over the Catalina Mountains, and I've done illustrations of this, I saw what I thought was the North Star. And it was extremely bright. And I said to myself, gee, you know, I can see why mariners use stars to navigate, because look how bright that star is. I don't think I've ever seen it as bright as I see it tonight. And I got to the road there, that's Bellevue, and I turned left, traveling west, and this is going into the sun is setting rapidly at this time. And as I'm traveling west, this is a residential area, so the speed limit was like 25 miles an hour to begin with, and I was driving an Oldsmobile 88, huge land yacht, and I'm looking out the passenger side window, and I can still see what I thought was the North Star, but it was moving. And I go like, oh, silly me, that's not a star at all. That must be the police helicopter. Because we had one police helicopter in Tucson at the time. And when it turned its spotlight on, it would be very bright. And I thought, oh, that's what I'm seeing. And I'm driving down Bellevue towards Craycroft Road. And this thing is getting brighter and brighter and larger and larger. And I'm almost at Craycroft when it swings over the road from north to south, pendulum-like. and then swings back again. And at this point, now the sun is set, and the stars are out, and it's setting over the road, and it's no longer a big bright white light. I would describe it, and again, I've done an illustration of this as well. If you were to take a magnifying glass and hold it up to the stars, you would see through the magnifying glass, the stars look

larger and on the outside they looked normal and around this ring this magnified ring was a corona going counterclockwise in a lavender blue just swirling around it and as people have often shared it was close enough i could throw a baseball and hit this thing it was that down i would say it was about two-thirds the size of the full moon, and I had gone to a crawl with the car, and I actually put it in park. It was still running, but I put it in park and stopped. I was staring out at it through the front window. I was just like, what the hell is this? And I made the foolish decision. Being young and foolish, I think I'll get outside of the car and take a better look at this and if i had a common sense something as unusual as this it's probably not a good idea to get out and take a look at it but i did and i'm just in amazement and this thing is this corona swirling around it and i got somebody else has to see this so i looked down up to the east down bellevue to see if anybody is coming and i could see almost down to alvernon and there's no cars coming. I could see cars in front of me at the west going up and down Craycroft. I thought, somebody must see this up in the sky because it's so brilliant. And then I started to get

get kind of you know flight or fright you know the adrenaline pumping i go like maybe this thing is radioactive am i standing out here getting bathed in radiation i don't even know it well you said lavender blue right that that could be like yeah what i didn't realize at the time and this was germane to the second incident i had later in 1979 is plasma discharge into the nitrogen, oxygen, and atmosphere will create a lavender blue aurora. And I didn't know that at the time, but that's the case in fact, that's what plasma will do. So I'm standing there, like I said, adrenaline starting to pump and suddenly, and startled me because it was so distinct and so clear. I hear, you know, a voice saying, there's nothing to fear. We're not going to harm you and i go like who said that and i actually turned that's like the standard script too like there's nothing to fear we're not here to harm you right yeah and it was so clear and people have asked me well was it a male voice or female voice i'd say it was the non-gender specific it was just a voice not high not low just a voice and it wasn't like you would hear like your thoughts it was like almost it was like a voice in my head though because there was nobody else there i mean there's no place else i could have heard it and that startled me and what the adrenaline turned immediately and i remember to this day and when i think about i can still kind of feel it was like if someone stuck a needle in my arm and shot me up with drugs there was a sudden euphoria where i felt oh there's nothing wrong this is great oh it was so pronounced i knew it was artificial right at that moment i go like i you know i didn't know where it came from or how it got to me but it was just like really strong very pronounced very drug-like and i'm looking at the object i think now looking back on what i was looking at through that was a lensing effect around a craft of some type and that's why i'm looking actually behind it those magnified stars were coming from behind it there was a light shift you know lens magnification thing it's just warping the space around it and that's why i couldn't see a craft But I believe there was probably a craft there inside that Corona. And it just zipped off to the West. I would describe it like in the old days, when you had a television with vacuum tubes in it, you shut off and everything would just go to like a little white dot.

That's exactly what it did. And I go, oh, my God. So I've seen this. my fiancee used to wait outside her mother's home for me and I thought maybe she saw it in the sky because I'm figuring that everyone in the city has to have seen this because it was so pronounced and I get over there and oh you know I just saw this blah blah did you see this thing in the sky nope I didn't see a thing I go like oh damn it you know nobody saw it and you know okay so you know we went to dinner and movie and did say anything more about well the next day i went over to a friend's house bill madonna good friend from literally i've known from elementary school he wasn't at home but his brother steve was there and i told him about what i'd seen the night before he says oh you should call apro and report your sighting i go oh yeah i've heard of them You know, I've seen them on the local news and stuff. Yeah, yeah. So we grabbed the phone book. No internet at that time. Grabbed the phone book to look it up. And I call APRO. And Jim Lorenzen, who manned the office, you know, five days a week, answered the phone. And very nice. And he asked me a bunch of questions. You know, I explained to him what I saw. And excitedly, hey, did anybody else report this? He goes, no. Nobody else reported. I go, like, ah, damn, you know. you know, maybe they'll report it later, you know, and we'll call you if something comes up. So I was a little crestfallen that no one else had seen this remarkable thing. And I looked at the address where APRO was located, and I saw that it was not far from where I lived. And I thought, you know what? Because my education at the time was in machine engineering and drafting and design and stuff. And a lot of people know that I have a kind of bifurcated career

career. I've also done a lot of work in the entertainment field. And at that time, I was early on in that I was apprenticing at a local TV station, K-Gun TV, on a local television show. And I thought, oh, you know, maybe I can, you know, go to APRO and maybe they need someone to make models or to do sculpture. And so this was interesting because what I had planned to do, my parents worked at Hughes Aircraft. And my educational thrust at the time was I'm going to, I want to get into aerospace engineering and do, you know, airplanes and spaceships and this kind of thing. That's where my career was headed. And at this time, I'd already had six years of machine engineering design. So I thought, I'll go by APRO and see if I can offer my services, maybe even get a job. You know, I had no idea what they were like. So I get over, I called the address, get over there. And it was a little, beautiful little cottage house with white picket and mailboxes said april i go like oh okay this is a homegrown kind of thing you know it's not what i envisioned at the time but okay you know i was very bold the way i got into k-gun tv i just went offered my services so i thought i'm just gonna do the same thing here you know i'll just go knock on the door explain what you know i'm interested in

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and jim met me at the door they were like surrogate parents jim and coral to me they were so nice invited me in i hit it off with coral right away and coral was she either loved you or hated you. You were either on her good side. If you were on her bad side, like Ellen Heineken was, she wanted nothing to do with you. But she just really took to me and Jim and I explained to him what I want to do. I said, hey, maybe I can do, you know, police sketches of, you know, reports and stuff. And oh, yeah, you know, we could use that. We don't have anybody that, you know in this vein yeah you know we'll be in touch and i thought oh great you know maybe this turned into something well it wasn't long after that they got their first big office in tucson and it was a fairly sizable office and i'm 20 something at the time and i never questioned you know i was innocent i never questioned how they got the office or where the money was coming from i figured you know yeah it's like groucho marx said you know everybody seems to have more money than i do and i figured this is the case here they have some income i knew they wrote books i figured oh they must be getting this from the books or writing and stuff and then you learned how much money people typically make for books like years later yeah yeah i go like no yeah which was a conundrum even when i worked there during time calling where's all this money coming from how because they got a bigger office later on and literally a membership at april was eight dollars a year a year and i even knew at that time is they're not paying for this with those membership fees and coral rarely left the house and jim didn't have any other job so i'm going like how are they paying for all this you know i didn't get really into it but i figured well there must be some means of support so they got the new office and jim invited me to come by they had signed for me and i didn't know again i was very innocent at the time didn't know anything about intelligence work or anything and i was literally being groomed to do basically research and intelligence gathering and i didn't realize it quickly became apparent that that's what was going on not in a professional sense later on looking back on it with the training that i received in my later career i go oh now i know why they had me do this or do that and on that first interview and they had me go out and interview this gal who claimed to have had contact with aliens channel she was a channeler and when i came back i'd taken copious notes of what she had shared. And Jim says, next time, he says, just try and remember it. Don't write

anything down. And I go, why? He says, yeah, just don't write anything down. Just try and remember it. It's a good kind of exercise to do. Use your eyes, use all your senses, and remember things that way. Well, later on, I realized, yeah, you don't write things down, because that'll come back to bite you. And you want to be a skilled observer, a trained observer. And later on in my career I actually trained people to be quote-unquote trained observers and there's methods to do this there's skills that you you can pick up and learn so that you can look at a scene or look at a suspect or look at an environment and remember everything about it photographically. And I was being groomed for that. Didn't know it at the time, but that's what was going on. And then I was fortunate in my service with them from 74 to 1980 to have been either the lead investigator or involved in investigation of some of the highest profile cases we had in the 70s sergeant charles moody travis walton betty andresen bill herman i was the first one to interview colonel jesse marcel long before freeman says he interviewed him i interviewed him telephonically jim lorenzen was present he'd been handed to us by leonard springfield who was writing at that time his book on alien craft retrievals. And Jim was assisting him with that, with information that we had in the APRO files. And APRO, it's interesting because a lot of people don't realize this about APRO and who they were and what they did. Coral had two encounters when she was in Wisconsin. One was during a mass sighting, and one was an individual sighting before the mass sighting. and her only writing at the time she was like a stringer she would write for the news local newspaper little articles on anything not on ufos just on all kinds of things and would send it in to submission you know on consignment and that was her only press experience and that becomes relevant later on and they informally began apro there it was just a couple months and then they suddenly go to Los Angeles, spend two months there, and then they go cross-country to New Mexico to Holloman Air Force Base. Now, they weren't spinning chickens at the time. They were in their 30s at the time. They show up there. Coral immediately becomes the base press officer, and Jim goes into signals intelligence, which is a very high-ranking, high-security position. and it's not like they went through basic training in the air force and then they just suddenly show up there and they're hired and i didn't realize that until much later i go like

wait a second wait a second how'd you get there in 1952 and they just show up and they make you what's that about and what's their actual background like that's a good question i've In fact, I'm a friend of Jason Lorenzen, which is Jim's nephew, and I've been talking to him more about that because Jim's brother is still alive, and I'm trying to find out, basically, what happened before this. Colonel Wendell Stevens, who was Jim's best friend, who I worked with the entire time with Sarah D'Apro, told me, I asked him one day, I said, how did you and Jim meet? because they were best of friends, although Coral would have nothing to do with Wendell. She wouldn't even let him in the house. But they were best of friends off-site, you might say. And I said, how'd you guys meet? And he says, oh, we met in the Air Force. And I said, you did? He says, yeah. He says, because I knew Wendell was in intelligence. He wasn't signals intelligence. He was in a photographic unit. And he says, yeah, we were both blue beret and this is the 1970s during the vietnam war and i go like oh i didn't

know what blue beret was i've heard two things i've heard the retrieval guys crash retrieval but also i think air force security might also wear blue berets yeah well that's what i thought

i thought oh these are like military police air force military police like the green beret you know because they were very prominent in the 70s everyone knew the green berets seals weren't a big thing or even rangers were in a big thing during the 70s everything was the green beret so i thought

the rangers i think were basically like they were around in world war ii but they were kind of reintroduced in the 1970s because the rumor going around was that they were going to forcibly remove nixon so they were anyway that's a rumor i don't know how accurate that is i would know about that

But the Green Berets were what I knew of. And again, I was so naive at the time. I didn't know much about, you know, military structure or who reported what or who or how these things worked. And so, oh, Blue Berets. Oh, OK. And I had seen in their home a picture of Jim in a full what would be an officer's uniform, Air Force officer's uniform, and a separate picture of a much younger Jim Lorenzen in an Air Force uniform, like privates. So I go like.

maybe he, you know, before he went to Hollerman, he was in the Air Force previously or whatever. There had to be some connection. I've looked, I've researched it extensively. I can't find anything before he shows up at Hollerman in 52, which is very interesting because they were there in 55 during the Eisenhower visit. And I didn't know about that visit in the 70s, but I can't. Do you think that's a real incident? Do you think it's a real incident? In fact, if you go to Eyes on Cinema, they have some of the witnesses. Actually, can you explain to the audience if they don't know what we're talking about? Just really quickly. Sorry. There was always a rumor that Eisenhower met with aliens at Hallman Air Force Base. And I don't know how they get this wrong, but I hear people say, oh, it was in 64. It could have been in 64. Eisenhower wasn't. Yeah, I hear the same thing. That's why. That's like a Doty. That's like a Richard Doty. Yeah. Yeah. And I know Richard Doty and, you know, thank him for his service, but that gets into the Benowitz case, which I don't think he was malicious in that. But it was a definitely unfortunate incident that that was one of the last incidents when I was in APRO. But anyway, it was in 1955, February of 55. There are witnesses to the saucer. If you go to Eyes on Cinema, one of the physicians who worked on base talks about the incident. And there's one of the firemen who worked on base also recounts the incident to his daughter of the craft landing. But it was in February of 1955. Apparently, there's some who say it was 56, but they were there on the base. They were running APRO out of the press office on Holloman Air Force Base. That's where they printed up the newsletters and sent them out from. And I'm going, there's no way in the world that happened unless the Air Force said it's okay to do it. Because they're using Air Force postage to send out these, and Air Force printing equipment to UFO newsletters to send out literally all over the world. People talk about this as the first national UFO research organization. they were the first international research organization. They're the ones that recovered the Ubatuba materials from Brazil that Gary Nolan now has and did the isotope research on. And we had other metamaterials. I never handled or saw any of these other metamaterials, but they had a number of them. Wendell had at least eight pieces of metamaterials that he believed were from the Roswell crash. We used the University of Arizona extensively for photographic analysis and the Kodak Center, which was in Phoenix. So it wasn't, once we got into the real offices, it wasn't anything to slip shop.

It wasn't like a homegrown thing. We had Dr. McDonald, who's very well known. And what's his name? He was from Berkeley, engineer. Did Donald commit suicide? How do I say the word? Yes, he committed suicide. That was before. I never met him. I met Leonard Sprinkle, who was- Yeah, Leo Sprinkle. Leo Sprinkle. He used to come into the office, speak with Jim a number of times. He was one of the hypnotists and psychologists who worked with Travis, first one to hypnotize him. and i can't think of his name from berkeley he was an engineer and also an amateur hypnotist he also hypnotized travis but we had high level individuals it's not like today it's not like there were hot and cold people running through that office all the time most generally everything was by snail mail you know you literally handwrite you know because you had the hunt and peck typewriters electric typewriters weren't big there were some at the time but they were like kind of crappy and expensive so you had little Hunt and Peck mechanical typewriters maybe type a letter, it was faster to handwrite it and whiteout it was very primitive you'd send it off to somebody you know and four weeks later you may get a letter back we weren't on the phone all the time long distance phone calls oh my god you're talking a few minutes you've got a hundred bucks you know and that was real money back then you know so if you were gonna make a long distance phone call it was like a prep you know okay we're gonna call it this time it's gonna be this long that's what happened with jesse marcel when i had very jesse marcel we had to arrange it we're gonna do it jim's gonna how did that go i i meant to ask about that. I was going to come back to it. Yeah, that has to be in context of what happened before this and the first serious attempt at disclosure. And this is an active investigation. We're still going on because a lot of people were involved in the Jimmy Carter disclosure. And Richard was of the mind. Richard Dolan was of the mind that, you know, Carter was interested in it, but never went anywhere. and there's the question about the incident about where jimmy carter was briefed and they somebody saw him crying at his desk i met jimmy carter four times what's your view of that is that real and like why would you cry no jimmy jimmy well he i believe he was briefed and he might have been praying at his desk because he was very religious individual but there is no way in the world that i was crying the first president i ever met was richard nixon i met carter ford dick cheney the

only one i did meet is bush the younger and obama bush senior nicest guy ever you know in that they've just he's like your grandfather great guy clinton i can see why he got he was so gregarious and he would walk in a room and he would just exude all these guys there was an aura around them that you could tell okay i can see why this guy is charismatic the one i met the most was nixon and first time i met he invited me in his room oh wow come on in can i get you a drink i'm going sir i'm on duty oh how about if i get you a coke you know very very nice you could talk to him about anything he had no secret service protection because he had resigned and so and all these guys were were real friendly like that i have to say and no disrespect for because he's

passed by the way i've heard the same thing about you're about to say i've heard the exact same thing

carter was carter was not friendly one time he he got in an argument threw someone out of his room because he was smoky and he was i was a little bit intimidated by him because he was not friendly and i didn't want to upset him or make him mad or whatever just because i wanted to be polite but he was not a friendly individual he was certainly not someone to weep over bad news this guy he was a nuclear engineer in his naval career and i believe when he was working on the nautilus originally that he was shown something by the then they called it the atomic energy

commission it wasn't the department was he on that nautilus where they did the telepathy which literally caused the soviets to start their program and then that caused us to start our

remote viewing program anyway sorry keep going he was an engineer for the development of the Nautilus. So he worked at the Atomic Energy Commission, building the reactors for the Nautilus. And I believe he was likely shown something at that time, maybe not told that this is extraterrestrial in nature, but was shown something, hey, what do you think of this? And that really goes back to what Bob Lazar describes in his craft is a cyclotron. It's a reactor-type ship. It's using nuclear materials for the ship. And I believe that that runs through many of the descriptions that we have when people talk to their abductors that they function in some nuclear capacity. I've shared many, many times on podcasts that I've done and interviews that i've done and for some reason it just seems to go by people and they never bring it back up but in this uh sergeant uh charles moody abduction he asked him about the function of the ship and he described this was almost a decade it was more than a decade before bob lissar he was the ship had three levels they took him down to the third level where these pods protruded outside the ship There were like little domes outside the ship. There were three of them. And he described gravity amplifiers that looked to him like 55-gallon drums hanging from pipe from the ceiling. This was long before Bob Lazar described the same thing, only he was looking down on them through an access hatch. And when Bob shared that in his interviews, I go, because we never released that. Any time that we had something big, we would keep some of the information to ourselves so that if someone tried to hoax it later on and piggyback on it, they wouldn't know certain details. And that's something we had never released that Charles had shared with us. And the creatures that abducted him.

said that they could recharge their ships from nuclear sources, that they could hover over a nuclear source and recharge the ship from that. And that was at a time, the Charles Mooney case, just before that, there was an incident in, I believe it was North Carolina, where UFOs were around an atomic submarine pen.

I know Pescagoula, that incident, they made nuclear attack submarines in Pescagoula. They never mention it in the literature, but that's what they were doing there.

Yeah, I believe that it's not that they're interested in our nuclear capabilities, but they're just charging their craft because you've had reports about them being around uranium mines and around MRI machines in hospital settings that had nuclear materials in them. So I think this isn't so much that they're spying our interest at all. It's just, hey, there's a place we can fuel up. And there might be, like with the nuclear missiles shutdowns in the Soviet Union, nuclear missile turn-ons, where they turn them on, it's just interference. Something happened. The gravitational field or in the charging experience when they're trying to charge the ship up, it either shut the system down because it drained the system. and in the case of the russians those missiles were in ukraine which was under the soviet union at that time then it turned them on rather than shut them down so they're not stupid how much would they need to learn they could learn all they need to know from outer space if they were

monitoring our nuclear systems heck just search it out online you know abduct the people as well

Yeah, it's not something like they continuously need to learn more about us by observing our nuclear materials. If you're able to control gravity, nuclear energy and nuclear fission and atomic bombs, that's like a matchstick. I mean, if you can control gravity, you can crush entire armies, sink ships, just crush entire cities. so what open a black hole beneath the planet and just and you have an impetrable force field you know using gravity as Bob describes you know with the little reactor he couldn't put his hands on it because it was giving this opposing charge so I don't think they are interested in that I think they're just recharging the ships there's just like a target of opportunity here we can recharge it and there's other suggestions of this in the 1960s again excuse me i don't recall the name of the incident there was an incident where a police officer i believe he was actually a sheriff was abducted and again the aliens said hey we're recharging our ship and they were draining a power line a power station at that time and so i think yeah and that makes sense that these crafts have an ability to recharge, you know, from different sources. So I think that's what we're seeing with that. Well, anyway, to get back to Jesse and how the Carter administration was involved in this, back in, I'd been there since 74. And in early 1978, Jim came to me and says, hey, Al, you know, we have this opportunity. There's some donors that want to open a UFO museum in minneapolis minnesota and they need models made and sculptures made and stuff it's going to be a big museum and they've asked us for our help and you know they're going to pay you to do all this and we'll give you everything you need to do this and i go oh great this is exciting you know i thought it was i had no idea i go like who the hell's got a ufo museum in Minneapolis I thought what kind of draw are you going to get on that but I thought okay it's not my money so if they want to pay me to do this I'll be glad to do it and they started you know particular things that they wanted they were very interested in the Bill Herman case and the Betty and Barney Hill case and they were on models of the aliens made and spaceships and stuff and so I started making these things and I'd give them to Jim Jim would send them off and we talked about. And that was early 78. And this went on all through the summer. And the museum finally opened around Thanksgiving in November of 1978. And I realized from the press package, and I still

have the press package and all the literature, everything that was involved in it, the flyers and photographs of the museum's opening.

and stuff and i go oh my god this was at the idea center in minneapolis minnesota which would be equivalent to the world trade center and they had the top floor 6 000 square feet of the top floor i go oh my god i'm thinking of a little hole in the wall you know or a closet or something you know on the outskirts of town i had no idea this was such a big deal a big press conference and And I had photographs of, you know, opening day and everybody streaming through the museum. It's all this really, you know, high-end photographs and all of a sudden I'm like, wow, I had no idea. I was excited. I thought maybe I'll get a chance, you know, fly out there and see this thing and stuff. And this was supposed to be a permanent exhibit. So not long after that, Jim had some heart issues and needed heart surgery. And back then, this was when they had to open your chest and regraft arteries on your heart and stuff. So he was down until after Christmas. And in late January of that year, this was going into 79, he stopped by and said, I want to come by your place, talk to you about something. Oh, okay. So he would do that. He would just call me out of the blue and say, I want to come by your house and talk to you about this. Oh, this will become relevant later. I didn't live in a regular house. I lived in a double-wide trailer, you know, young. Well, it wasn't at all unusual in Arizona. It was almost on the edge of town near the Catalina Mountains. He stopped by and said, I want to talk to you about the museum. I thought, oh, maybe they want something more. Maybe they're not happy with something or need something repaired. And he says, the museum is more than, you know, I've shared with you. The museum is actually a trial balloon, and he says, and he put, it sounds very casual today, but this is how we spoke back then. He said, the president wants to tell the history of UFOs in association with the government, the Air Force, and NASA, which kind of blew me away because I didn't know NASA was involved in this at all. and so i'm kind of like what are we talking about here and he's shared with me that basically the museum was a trial balloon to see how people would kind of the ontological shock and because there was no association with the government that this had anything to do with the government they're saying but it started to make more sense to me now because who would invest this kind of money and get this kind of property which would have been tens of thousands of dollars a month to have this property for a ufo museum and he says what they want to do

is take all the exhibits and more and they're going to take for people don't remember in 1976 we had the bicentennial train which took the u.s constitution the bill of rights and all these smithsonian exhibits around the country so everyone could see firsthand could see the the Constitution, because not everyone can go to Washington, D.C. And for the centennial, this was a huge thing. And they did come to Tucson, and they went to major cities, L.A. and everything. So they want to take the bicentennial train and refit this with all the museum pieces and actual UFO wreckage. And I said, you mean like Roswell? He said, yes. We're going to have Roswell on there. I said, are you going to have the alien bodies? He said, yes. that's point blank and i go wow that's this cool and when he's telling me this you know how they want to refit the bicentennial and i go like in my young mind that's kind of stupid because i thought it was kind of corny but but looking back on it it made perfect sense because you're talking at a time when there were only three networks the only newspaper you got in tucson was the local newspaper. They had an evening and morning newspaper. And if you want something like the New York Times or LA Times, you had to go to a newspaper stand. There was one downtown where you could buy these types of newspapers, and they were like three days late. So you didn't have communication like you have today. Neither did you have the kind of threats that you have today, so you could run the US Constitution around. Today, there's no way in the world that they would put the U.S. Constitution on a train and try and take it anywhere because of terrorist attacks or whatever. But back then, that made perfect sense. And I thought, okay, this is a way that everyone can see and believe there's the craft, there are the bodies, this is the explanation. So why didn't they do this? Why didn't they stop it? Well, it started. stopped so my first task was to start doing designs to retrofit the train and i did and i wasn't sworn to any secrecy he didn't say this is top secret don't tell anybody you're being read into a program nothing like that i told my sister my parents i was married then to my fiance and told her i told my best friend david haley who's still alive all these people are except my parents my parents pass away but these people are all you know still alive i told them this contemporaneously and i still have the illustrations that i did you know dated at you know to retrofit the train and stuff this is a real thing is going forward and he says first thing we're going to do i'm going to set up an interview with this guy i didn't know who he was

at the time, although it was in the literature. People say that Roswell was revisited in 19. No, we knew about Roswell. We knew about Kingman. We knew about Aztec. This was not secret at the time. It was not forgotten lore. We knew about it. We discussed it. We talked about it. We thought maybe there was some conflation between some of these, that some of the stuff about Kingman was really about Aztec or whatever, but we knew about this, and we knew about Roswell, and I didn't know Jesse Marcel by name. I'd seen pictures of him, but I didn't know him by name, and he said, Jim said, we want you to interview Jesse Marcel. I'm going to be with you. We're going to talk about this in lieu of we're going to create this exhibit in the train, and this is literally at my home. Jesse called in. Leonard Springfield, who was writing the recovery manual was the one who referred him to Jim and later there in 70 because Leonard released his book in 77 I believe it was and so this was 79 so it was a couple years later and he referred him Jesse to Jim and we set up the call I talked to him and this stuff you hear about it and I believe it's even in some of the reports that the i-beams you know that he described were made of balsa wood that's ridiculous he told me specifically they were metal there wasn't even an argument about that and some people and i heard this recently on another interview where they talked about the metal found that he was able to crunch the metal no that came much later and that was from the gal whose father was a fireman, and they had a piece of the material and it opened and closed. Jesse said that the material they found, he said, one sheet was large enough that they could lay it against the wheel well of the staff cart they had. And he said, it was as light as cigarette paper, cigarette tinfoil. In the old days, when you buy a pack of cigarettes, it had like a mylar tinfoil and he says when you held this in your hand it had almost no weight at all it was that thin but they placed it against the wheel well of the staff car and it took a sledge hammer out of the back of the truck and they could not bend it they struck it and it could not would not bend or anything it was just totally rigid but felt like nothing and described the i-beams and he described the inscription in the i-beams as like looking like hieroglyphs so they weren't egyptian but that's what he first thought of and he did describe something that later curso described like fiber optics like wiring that he described and he said there was so much of this stuff it filled the trunk and filled the whole back seat of the car and there was still some left

you know there was that much of it and he stopped by his house showed his wife and his son son's also passed away now and his son also later described these i-beams were metal not balsa wood because what they said about the later report that clinton had done was that this was a project to listen into any explosions the soviets were testing oh project modal oh sorry mogul And it's case closed. Case closed. Yeah. And they said that those I-beams were actually balsa wood that had tape, Christmas tape on them, and the ink had bled off into this. I'm going, Jesse was an intelligence officer for the 509 bomb wing. He knows the difference between balsa wood and metal. Yeah, you wouldn't put him head of intelligence of the one place on earth where every nuclear weapon was stored. Yeah, yeah, it was ridiculous. Now, I have to say, in interviewing him, he did seem guarded a little bit. I asked him specifically, had he seen any bodies? He said no. no and had he seen an attack craft and he said no but i got the feeling he wasn't telling me the truth that he was being very guarded because he didn't know me he didn't know apro i'm sure that he felt a little you know who are these guys you know and everything and to my knowledge he didn't know about us we were going to do this bicentennial train thing or anything but there was nothing that he shared with me that he didn't later share in the documentary we did that summer, which had his first on-camera appearance in the documentary UFOs Are Real. And that was his first on-camera appearance. And what he said in that on-camera appearance is exactly what he told me on telephone. And that was, I didn't know at a time, I only realized this a few years ago, the producer director for that documentary was a cia asset brandon chase i believe the name is and chasing chase brandon chase brandon yeah yeah yeah i've heard this guy yeah yeah this guy disappeared too right he just i don't know if he's disappeared since then but he claimed to be a cia asset for hollywood and looking back on i go okay that's why that all makes much more sense now and this documentary got an international release and again we thought oh this is going to break everything open this is part of the big reveal and then we're going to have this train because this is going into the summer and in the fall was when we were going to finish up the train and do the big reveal and and reveal the history and everything because Carter was working on his, you know, election. And that's what killed it, is he didn't get reelected. Boom, case closed. That was it.

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