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And on the other hand, everything could be addictive if there's an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled.

I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life.

I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. This is the Goop Podcast. Bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers and seekers. Here to start conversations. because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. Here we go. This week, we're sharing a gem from the Goop Podcast archives. Welcome to the Goop Podcast. I'm Gwyneth Paltrow. And today I'm sitting down with two of my good friends, a pair of overachieving sisters doing it all, hosting a podcast, running a fashion line, and now releasing season two of their hit Netflix show. We talk about the inevitable pivots on the way to success, what it's really like to work with family, and the very real challenges of fertility. Always hilarious, never predictable, Erin and Sarah Foster. Hi, the roles are really reversed now. I know. It's so fun for me to get to do this today because, I don't know, I was just reflecting on, I've known you guys for such a long time, and I love you both. I've gotten to watch each of you go on these incredible journeys, both separately and then together as entrepreneurs. I was thinking about it, and I feel like, God, I'm so proud of them. That's so nice. That's so nice. I know

there's been a lot of lives lived in our friendship. There's been a lot of lives lived.

so so let's start back at the beginning we don't have to traverse across the whole story because we told it on your podcast the world's last podcast best podcast first podcast what's it

called the world's first podcast but i was gonna say you and sarah have a a very deep history and you and i our history has really cranked up a notch in the last six months our history oh my god i

I mean, since, since, since I did your pod, Erin, I feel like you're now my best friend and Sarah's below you.

I know it's, and it's, I mean, the non-toxic mom chat, don't be toxic has really brought us together because we have such a shared passion and you've been a fantastic addition to the chat.

Thank you. I would, I would say it's a shared psychosis maybe, but yeah, that's okay.

It's like, what's so funny.

I said to Erin, I was like, Erin, you're just like pushing Gwyneth to be on your chat. She doesn't want to be on your chat. She's like, why are you pushing her kids? She's an empty nester now. She doesn't want to be on your little baby mom chat. Cut to, you know, to find out you're very active

on the chat. Great addition. Thank you. I take it seriously. I take my role seriously. I take,

you know, I, it's, it's a very, it's, it's not hard. It's a big deal bringing someone new into the chat because, I mean, I said this to you on the podcast, but like, you know, I've suggested a few different people and the group's like, no, thank you. I mean, I was one of them. I was one of them. And it's not for people who are curious about a non-toxic life. That's welcome to the world. You need like your fake PhD. Yes, exactly. You have to be bringing information, knowledge, and a passion. It can't just be like a, you know, living fancy free or whatever. Anyway. that's right anyway you've been a great addition and it feels amazing having you on it and i love

having that connection to you now i feel closer to you me too me too me too and i always love it when i can you know find freaks like me to talk about microplastics with you know it's very

validating and i always love giving you know aaron her friends her other best friend so you're welcome aaron you know wow looking like someone who's toxic and can't be on our chat

that's a real development did you steal her real best friend yeah no jen and i've been getting close for the last five years and it's really kicked into high gear and she comes over like three times a week i mean she's because she's developed like a strong strong bond with my baby

sarah how does that make you feel i mean you know that i've i suffer from this thing that you don't suffer from it's getting a lot better gwyneth and we said it on our pod does not have fomo she doesn't have FOMO. She's securely attached. She's confident. She never feels threatened. You know, I always feel threatened. I'm like in this fight or flight mode always, but it's totally better. Like I'm actually very happy for you two to have this, whatever this relationship is that you two are building that I'm sure won't, you know, sustain the way that yours and mine has, but like, I'm happy for you guys to have it. I'm happy for her and Jen. Jen will always be my best

friend but it's it's good okay good well this you know this brings me actually to my first question because so so a few years ago you started a fantastic clothing brand called favorite daughter that's like become incredibly successful so proud of you guys you've how many retail stores do you

have now well we have beverly hills our flagships in beverly hills on south beverly it's a it's beautiful we're proud of really really beautiful we had palisades and then we are looking to aaron we are looking to open. I didn't know I wasn't allowed to speak. I didn't know that. I didn't know the rules where I wasn't allowed to talk. No, no, you are. We just got to get through this. We just got to get through the one sentence. And then we'll be opening hopefully two. On the

roadmap is two by the end of the year. Amazing. So I kind of want to start there because I feel like you guys have – there are so many young women in their 20s who kind of have an idea of what they want to do, and they're sort of, you know, trying different things or don't necessarily feel fully empowered to go after their dream. I feel like you guys had a gestational period where you were sort of figuring it out, right? It was like, are you going to act full-time? Are you going to write full-time? Are you going to invest? Are you going to influence, for lack of a better word, like there was kind of a lot percolating simultaneously. And then all of a sudden, like some major things took hold and got traction and kind of around the same time. So, so favorite daughter, I didn't see the clothing thing coming. It was such a good surprise. And sort of starting with the seed of like you guys and your like fake competition of one another, Obviously, the brand is Favorite Daughter. So inherently in that is like the dynamic is, you know, is expressed, brought to light. So will you tell me a little bit about that period in your lives, right? Like you're, Erin, you were totally trying to find a husband. Sarah, you were sort of like, what am I actually going to focus on? You were raising your kids. That was taking so much of your mind share, but you also had ambitions to do other things. you guys are, it's like, if I think back to five years ago, you guys are sort of like floating, trying to kind of nail, nail it down. So how would you articulate the series of events that happened or what happened energetically to lead you guys into this period of clarity and execution and success? Well, I can just say for myself, because Sarah and I, we both have different

paths is that

My first professional writing job in TV was when I was 29. And I'm now almost 43. And so it was a long time ago. But it was also a little bit of a late start for someone about to turn 30. And I was immediately met with a really challenging situation. And it sort of shook my faith. I was very clear. I really want to be a writer. I really want to be a professional writer. I loved having that opportunity. But then there was like a stumbling block where I got fired and I questioned if I was good at it or not. And I didn't really know what to do next. So then enter Barely Famous. We end up selling a pitch that we write and produce and create and do our own thing. And it's very guerrilla style. We don't make any money on it. We actually lose money on it. People really like it, but it doesn't really get good ratings. It barely gets a second season. We still continue to not make money on the show. And you can't, this was the reality show you did. Well, it's not, it wasn't a reality show. It was a scripted show about making fun of two people who would be doing a reality show. Right. Yeah, exactly. So it was like our curb and that sent us on a different path, but still you're not making money doing that. And so from there, I, as somebody who wanted to be a writer, creator, showrunner, wasn't really able to have consistency in that. Like I sell a pilot, they don't make the pilot, but you get a little money. I sell a pilot, they make the pilot, but it doesn't get picked up. You make a little money. So during that process, if anybody came to me and said, Hey, I have this other interesting business idea that I think you should do, I would be like, I could try that too. If it was clothes, if it was a podcast, I was like, I want to stay busy. I want to stay proactive. I don't know how to make my writing career take off. I don't know how to make it make me a millionaire, make me super successful. So I'm open to things that are interesting and creative to me. And I think in some ways being open to your life looking a different way does end up putting you on the path you kind of always intended to be on just differently than you thought it would look right and sarah i mean

i think if i'm being really honest i spent most of my life not having agency like at all like really just not living in this forward moving energy i really sat back most of my life just thinking things were going to fall in my lap because things fell in my lap as a very young person. You know, when you're young and you're 5'9 and people tell you you're attractive and you just sort of think like, okay, well, I'll get opportunities. You know, I moved to Paris when I was 18. I was like, I can make money modeling. I just, I didn't know who I was as I've been very open about on our own podcast. I had no, I had really no self-esteem. I didn't know what I was good at. People told me, oh, you'd be good at this. I would try this and I'd be kind of good at it. But I just, I didn't have a plan. I really just didn't have a plan. And I always ended up landing on my feet. So the optics were that like, oh yeah, she's, she's doing well. Like her life is good, blah, blah, blah. But like my life wasn't really good because when you don't have agency and when you don't have a North star and when you don't know who you are, you're not as you love to say you're not living in your integrity like it's really just sort of this gray thing and I you know did I think what a lot of people do which is I found my identity and who I was dating so I would date men who did have agency and who were these like larger than life people because it gave me self-esteem like oh they want to be with me so then I guess I'm okay I guess I'm interesting. Do people know who those people are? I'm not going to say. I'm just wondering if they do or not. I don't know. Sadly, paparazzi just wasn't around the same way

back then or else we'd have so much more evidence. You bagged some whales. Yeah, yeah. Definitely

bagged some whales. Guys, the whales that I could have bagged that I didn't bag, that's a far more interesting story. But so yeah, I guess my life really got good when I started being open to new opportunities. Like I used to look at opportunities and go, okay, if this isn't leading to the thing that I think I want to do, I'm not going to do it. When I started being open to opportunities, not knowing where those opportunities would lead, not necessarily thinking that those opportunities were what's the word i don't want to say below me you know but like when we took the bumble position everybody told us that was

a crazy thing to do people were like you're finally now just being taken seriously as actress comedians with barely famous because it did it wasn't it wasn't a huge hit but the industry took notice the industry was kind of like wait even though gwyneth thought that it

was a reality show guys that's a compliment that i couldn't tell the difference yeah oh yeah that

means we're really good actresses aaron but but it was kind of like the first time that that you know comedic agents and and executives were like wait those girls are funny like we we need to develop something else with them so we kind of went from that to then taking the position at

bumble where we were just i mean and what was the role at bumble you were sort of ambassadors

we were heads of creative so whitney basically the she loved barely famous her her team loved Barely Famous, she hired us to come speak on a panel. And, and she was launching the BFF and biz arm of the app. And she was like, I don't know, guys, I think those girls should kind of come in and be our heads of creative, make, make finding a friend and a business partner feel relevant, feel cool, feel all the things, right? Like, and so everybody was like, why are you, why are, why are you doing that? That feels like, why aren't you writing another show? anyways, that pivot, and I know we talk about pivots all the time, that pivot led us down a really fruitful, fruitful road. And in what sense? Well, I think it was the first time that

Aaron and I really worked together. Because you're ideating ideas about how to amplify Bumble and their mission, and it's like creative stuff. But it also, I think, just opened us up to

seeing ourselves differently you know i think that i'm sure in some ways for you gwyneth you're like i identify as an actress and then you start goop and you're like i'm a founder i'm a businesswoman i'm an investor i'm a shareholder like you become all these different things and it opens up your mind to i don't have to be this one thing i set out to be and like limit myself that way and i think that whitney was a big part in teaching us you know whitney has a lot of confidence in business and she doesn't really limit herself in any way but don't you feel like we're kind of

living in this interesting age where you know as soon as you have a platform you can develop any number of business lines or creative lines out of a platform it's actually like in one way it's so incredible and it's so democratizing and empowering. And then in another way, it's sort of like anyone can do it and the possibilities are limitless, but you guys have had real success at it. So why do you think that is? Like for example, obviously, and we'll get to the show, but from a favorite daughter perspective, I just find it so interesting, right? Because you weren't like, oh, my life's dream is to make a clothing line. no no no tell us about the process of that coming to you I mean honestly that all's in the same

bucket as as what I was saying like being open to new opportunities like it actually and I don't know if you want to tell the story Erin you can tell the suburban riot story but it stemmed from an opportunity that came our way that I was like came my way okay it came but here's your way

Sarah and I have different strengths. So Sarah is very hardworking, right? She has almost like a better work ethic than I do. She's got like more ambition than I do, but I am much more open to opportunities because I don't fear failure the way that Sarah fears. But that's because I failed a lot as a kid and Sarah didn't. Sarah was straight A student. She was always the best everything that she did and i was eldest girl exactly you know that is that is an affliction

it's it's like a it's it's almost like a personality disorder and i would know yeah

totally it is definitely a disorder no but i was very used to failing i didn't get good grades i didn't make the team i didn't get you know all those things so i was kind of comfortable in that zone of like i don't know maybe i fail and that won't define me because i've failed before right sarah had a real fear around that and a fear around failing in front of other people and so for her she was very resistant to trying these things because she would think about what are i don't want to put words into her mouth but like the fear of what it would look like to other people that if we tried this thing and it didn't work out like what would that say about us whereas for me i would look at it as like how cool would it look to people if we tried something new and different and put ourselves out there and if it doesn't work i'm okay with that because because it's not that I'm such a big person. It's more like that was kind of always part of my process is starting and failing.

failing, starting, and failing. So it wasn't something to me that was going to define me the same way. Really, I'm sorry to interrupt, Erin, but I really respect and admire that because, you know, as mentioned, I'm from the same camp as Sarah, right, where like when you're the first born daughter, like I cannot stress this enough. It's like the implicit responsibility that gets put onto your shoulders in terms of reflecting back to your parents that they are good and important people and looking after your siblings. I mean, it's so intense. And I do think that it creates a situation where we feel like if we're not perfect, we're nothing. Like we're valueless unless we're perfect. And it's a really, really difficult catch 22. So do you feel that you've been able to kind of imbue Sarah a little bit more with this feeling of like it's okay to try and feel like Sarah do you feel having watched Aaron's philosophy around this that you feel a

little bit more freed up or healed around this subject yeah I mean Aaron always I mean Aaron and I are very different at like at 20 I was always so concerned with with what I looked like to people or what people thought of me. I mean, it really meant something to me. At least I thought it meant something to me. I was like, okay, if I go on this audition and I see a peer there, they're going to think, you know, that I've failed as an actress because I'm auditioning for this, like, you know, Tampax commercial when I was just in this big movie, but I'm not really a good actress. So I didn't get another role in a big movie. And now I'm at a commercial audition for Tampax truly. And I would suffer. I'd be like, I'm, I'm not good. I'm not this. I'm not that where Aaron, Aaron's like, shit, I got to pay the bills. I'm going to get a job at free people. And I needed to do that because I needed money, but I was like, I can't go do that. So I'm going to, I'm going to go figure out other ways, you know, and Aaron, Aaron had no ego around it, you know, at all. I love that. But yes, Aaron has definitely helped me, you know, in so many ways, But when it came to the clothing, that the seed was planted for us in the clothing business as a little T-shirt collaboration with like a little random company that had reached out to Aaron, who just made T-shirts and sweatshirts, saying, you and Sarah are really funny. Would you guys ever want to do captions for T-shirts and sweatshirts? OK, now Aaron goes, this sounds cool. I hear that and I go, OK, great. Loserville. I'm a copywriter now. Oh, okay. I mean, this was such a little deal that we didn't even have a contract, okay?

So that's where the favorite daughter name came?

Yes. Well, well. We had a contract, just no lawyers looked at it, which was really smart of us. We signed it at Hugo's over lunch. So basically, we, you know, like 15, no, 20 years ago or something, we started, our dad wanted us to have an LLC with our sisters for like legal things. And And I, being the person who always had to do everything, was the person who named it or whatever and was the executor who would sign things. So I just named it Favorite Daughter Music because like every other parent, our dad would joke when he was alone with us that we were the favorite. And so everybody's being told that they're the favorite when you're alone. And then you talk to each other and realize that he's been telling everybody this. So it was just like a joke, like a nothing, you know, call it Favorite Daughter Music. so then when we were doing these t-shirts i thought i was so clever coming up with like dying alone with like a cat on it or like currently peaking like all these things that i thought were super clever undiscovered model they are thank you honey they didn't sell they didn't sell sarah goes oh let's do one that says favorite daughter and i was like that's cheesy no that's boring and she's like erin we're doing like 20 of them let's just do one i was like fine so we do favorite daughter put a little heart on it and two million dollars of sales in one t-shirt come on yeah nothing else sells except for this dumb ass t-shirt and so we're like that's interesting and basically this company centric took notice of it because this t-shirt started

being everywhere and by the way and therein lies our partnership right like it's like the things that you know she came up with this idea 20 years ago but then I brought it back around she shit on it but I did it anyway you know it's like the ebb and flow and and this sort of it's just because I

wanted it to be edgy I wanted us to like come up with like snarky things and yeah felt like cute you know all these people were buying it for their eight-year-old daughters and like buying it for all three of their daughters they'd wear it in a picture together like a joke and I was like cute You but that's not what I'm going for. I'm going for like hard comedy. And I was wrong. This is the thing that worked. And so a company came to us, Centric, and they said, we want to start a fashion brand around this IP. And it was something that had never occurred to us. We weren't trying to do something bigger. And I think, again, Sarah's instinct is fear. Like, no, no, no, no, no. I don't want to put ourselves out there like that. Well, I was just sort of like, we're not doing a

fashion brand. We're not fashion girls. Like we don't even care about fashion. Like we don't,

we, we, you know, but that ends up so refreshing about it in a way too, you know, it's like, because what you are is like, you know, your personal style, you guys always look really cute. You're, it's a very California brand in my mind, you know? So it's like, it turns it on its head. Like the whole point is that you're not like New York fashion bitches who take yourselves too seriously in that respect, right? You're like these gorgeous blonde dress like yourselves

always look great sisters. Thank you. I think that what we realized is that there's fashion is such a strong identity of the it bag and the it coat and the $2,000 this and coveted stuff. And you have to be on the list and, and that's not who we are. And so that's not our brand, Our brand, it turns out there's way more women in the world like us, right? There's more girls like us because girls can't afford to be that person. And even if Sarah and I could afford it, it's just not who we innately are. So I think that the special sauce is a combination of us staying very true to ourselves, not who we want to be, not who we wish we were, but who we actually are. Because I've always been intimidated. You know, my best friend, Jamie she's like the most stylish person on the planet like that's intimidating for me right I wish I could effortlessly throw something on it's like a caftan with like feathers hanging off and it like looks effortless but like that's not me so I think big part of it is accepting the truth of who we are and turning that into a superpower and then also if we sign up to do something we really really really follow through with it we stay focused on every detail just the same way you did when you started Goop. It's not like you started something and then walked away. Like every single detail is being paid attention to. And you can't take your eye off the ball at any point. Sarah and I are still in every fitting. That doesn't change.

Same. So when you say, like, I thought that was really interesting how you just said, you know, we're very true to who we are, not who we want to be or think we are. Like, how do you distill that down for yourselves? Like, do you think there's a, a freedom and just full acceptance of like, okay, I'm letting go of this aspiration that I'm going to be X?

I was in, I was in, you what? I just think there's a freedom in it. I think that resisting the truth makes you go crazy. And I think for me, at least it's not like I was born comfortable. It took me a really, really, really long time to stop trying to be something else. And I just got comfortable asking what a word meant or, you know, on a trip, someone goes, what's the last book you read? I'm like, Oh, I don't know. I haven't read a book in a year. I would have panicked and lied to somebody at that point. If I was 25, I would have got like to kill a mockingbird. I don't know. It'd make something up that I thought was impressive. Like I just read it for fun, but that would be insane.

If you said the last book you read was to kill a mockingbird at a dinner, Some annoying guy on a date would say that, you know, and it would send me into a spiral

about it. But I don't know. I just couldn't live like that any longer.

So how do you define yourselves, each of you? What are like the three to five kind of main values that you each carry? Oh, shit. You mean, oh, man, that's a good question,

Gwyneth. See, I told you, Erin, she's a hard-hitting journalist.

That's not hard-hitting journalism, honey. I'm just really curious. I want to hear how, like you were talking about the truth of who you really are. So what are some words that help elucidate that for us? I mean, I think for myself,

truth and honesty is sort of like the forefront of my persona and how I live. And, and for me, having integrity is really important. And I understand that might be obvious, but I mean, like if I'm, if I'm talking about someone behind their back, it is really important to me that I don't go then kiss their ass two days later. Like I have to stay true to the things that I say, And I try really hard to do that. I also am an anxious person and I'm a really reactive person. It's really. hard for me to not get like activated by things and to not have like a jump reaction of defensiveness or justifying something. It's hard for me to apologize. Just saying some of my negative things. And I really also accept myself, you know, good and bad. Good and bad. Sarah?

Yeah. You know, I'm, I'm in an interesting place because I only really started taking a hard look at myself like four years ago, as you know, we would sit at the dinner table and you'd say to me like, well, are you in therapy? And I would just look at you and be like, no. And you would look at me and be like, okay. I mean, and you would lovingly be like, I know some people if you'd like their number. This is an intervention. But like, I really realized over the last four years that I have a lot of unhealed shit. And it's really crazy looking at it so late in life. I mean, it's like, it's such a disservice I've done to myself because there's nothing you can't overcome. You can wake up tomorrow and change. I believe that. Yes, I believe we are who we are and there are certain things about me. I'm always just going to kind of be flaky. I'm always going to kind of be bad on text, even though my therapist is actually, he's literally, he texts me at 5.30 every day and he's like, what's your text count at? But I've realized- This is a very

good time to be texting Sarah because her therapist has mandated that she respond to people.

Wow. Well, maybe I'll try again then now that I know it's part of the protocol.

But I do have deep anxiety. Like I want to be a perfectionist. I am a people pleaser. I avoid conflict, but yet then when I'm in conflict, I thrive in it because I love to just scream at somebody. I mean, I'm really like a fucked up person. Like it's crazy. Like I will have, i will stay in a bad relationship for way long longer than i should because i'm too i don't i want to avoid the conflict of leaving a relationship i mean i'm talking like you know along you know earlier relationships i'll stay with like a bad agent like an agent who like won't return my calls for two years i still stay i'm like oh well you know i don't want to fire him even though he would love to probably get rid of me i've just never known how to face conflict but then I'm very combative. I love to say to someone, you can go fuck yourself. That doesn't stress me out to say that to someone, which is not normal. I know. I love it when you get like that.

But when it comes to business, whenever I'm like, I'm not fucking putting up with this shit. This is bullshit. Sarah panics. It's like, no, no, no. You can't say that to the person. She has a very we're lucky to be here kind of mindset where I'm like, I'll turn the whole house down.

It's like a peacemaker mindset, you know, which it's kind of like a let's not do anything to blow up the situation, you know?

But also in business, Erin is more confident because Erin has an innate talent. Erin is a writer. She will always be able to fall back on being really talented at something. I am more of a connector and like, I don't even know what you want to say about me, but i feel like i always have to be you know churning i have to always be i don't know what the word is so when aaron is like no let's walk away from this deal i'm like wait what no you can't walk away because then if you walk away then the deal might explode and then where's my security because financial security is a very right i'm always we had a mom who was an amazing mom but our mom you know supported us on child support checks like that's how it works right like there

There was scarcity. There was scarcity.

Yes. And I knew when the child support check was late. I knew as the oldest daughter. So in my mind, I'm like, I don't want to be living my life like that. So I have to constantly, I'm always in fear that I will lose everything, that I will have nothing. It's just a thing. And it's- Right.

So that makes sense then. you want to keep things sort of a status quo because they, they, you know, you, you could make something worse, right. By. Yeah. It's a terrible way to live, but. Well, but I, you know, I, I just want to say, you know, I think there's been a lot of growth from, from that. And, you know, like even, even deciding to, you know, around this time when you started to look at yourself about four years ago, I think there was like, you were very brave in how you started to think about the kind of life that you wanted going forward. And for example, how your romantic relationship dovetailed into that. And, you know, that is, that is a very brave, difficult thing to do, you know, to, as we've talked about a lot, you know, when you make a decision to, to not be with the father of your, of your children. And, but it is also a very self-honoring choice, you know, and Tommy's awesome. It's not about that. It's about, right. Like the reckoning of this is, I need to release the real me and be able to make decisions from that place.

Yeah. I mean, I've spent way too long just living in autopilot in so many ways. I used to say to you, I used to be like, it's like I'm at 37,000 feet in the clouds, like asleep at the wheel. I just don't. And that's not even, that was in every aspect of my life. I even found myself in the way that I parent, you know, that's no way that we should live our lives as a mother, as a partner, as a founder of who, as a human, as a woman, as a woman. But don't you think it's like also

no accident that, you know, you sort of stuck a stake in the ground, claimed yourself, claimed your agency. And then like all of this success started coming. You know, I don't, I don't think

that's an accident. Yeah. I mean, I, I also, I'm so lucky that I have Aaron as a partner because Aaron, Aaron wakes up and, and she has an abundance mindset and not an abundance and get rich, but just an abundance, just an abundance can be a million things. And it's such a great way to live. And I wake up the opposite of that. So if I didn't have a partner with that mindset, like, I don't know. I mean, I would just, well, I'd be on OnlyFans, I guess, which still not know, you know, still not. It's always an option. We should collaborate. We should collaborate on that.

And Erin, one of the things that really like fascinates me about you is that you do, you are an optimist. You have this, you do come from a place of abundance. I mean, of course you have your like dry, wicked sense of humor, but you, you are an optimist in my, and you, you, you do have this sense of abundance that life is behind you. It's on your side. So how have you been able to like when something really difficult, like, like you had 81,000 rounds of IVF, like how did you remain so positive? That's crazy. Like I've never, I've, I've never had a friend who's got, been through the ringer more on that front. And I know you've talked openly about it. Otherwise, I wouldn't have spoken about it. But I'm so interested in what was your philosophy around doing it, continuing to do it, the resilience? How did you conjure the resilience? How did you stay so positive until you got the result? It's crazy.

I mean, there were a lot of times I didn't feel positive. I mean, there was a time where like i think after maybe 10 or 11 rounds i like kind of had a mental breakdown and i was like i need to go somewhere and i i don't remember if i asked her if she offered but our little sister jordan got on a plane she had a baby she lived in new york and she got on a plane and we and met me in sonoma and we like turned our phones off for three days and drank wine and rode bicycles and got massages and disconnected. And it like kind of saved me. It gave me another, I don't know, three or four years of going through it. Like it gave me some stamina because I just felt like I was going to lose my mind a little bit with the frustration. So I hit breaking points. It's not like I was always positive, but you know, I, I had a, I had a really strong faith that it was going to work out. And I can only think of the comparison to finding my partner because when I was flailing and going on bad dates and not in a place where it seemed like it was going to work out, I just had this strong feeling that it would work out. And I didn't know how, but I did think it would. And I think a big part of the fertility faith and the love faith and the kind of faith everyone should have is it might not work out how you want it to, but it will work out if you allow it to. And I really felt like I will meet my person. And I remember having a very clear age in my mind when I was like 32 or something. I might not meet my person until I'm 41. That was an age that scared me. I might not meet my person until I'm 41 and he might already have kids and I might be a stepmom. And if that's how it works out, but it works out, I have to be okay with that. I don't like how that looks. I don't like how it sounds. I don't like how long it's going to take, but I have to be okay with it.

and sort of letting go of the those like prescriptions like the prescriptive my life

has to look like this yeah and i i don't know where that comes from i think just because i had a harder time the first half of my life and sarah had an easier time the first half of her life and then we sort of switched roles and sarah started to have a hard time because she was looking at herself and i started to have an easier time but my life didn't turn out the way i thought it was going to. It's very different. And I ended up having a baby at 41 and that's not when I thought I was going to have a baby, you know, but now I look at it and I go, wow, the timing was

really perfect. And it just worked out. So like, it sounds to me listening to you that you have faith, let faith, I don't, you know, it, it, it, it, it courses through your body, like this knowing, like, I know it's going to be okay. I don't know how, right. Or I'm going to let go of these preconceived ideas about how my life is going to look in the time frame which are very very difficult for young women to do especially in our culture i think so then you meet the love of your life and it turns out that he's jewish and you have to convert to judaism and i'm so curious because like there are so many beautiful things in judaism especially the mystical side which really resonates with me. And I come from this long line of mystical rabbis. When you went through the process of converting, was there anything about the Jewish faith that you learned about that sort of ratified the internal faith that you had already? Did you combine those things in any way? Or were you just like, no, I'm just converting so that this hot Jewish guy will marry

me i mean a little bit of both i guess but but you know like 15 years ago my girlfriend sophia rossi she got more religious in her jewish faith and she decided to sort of dive deeper into judaism and i went to a few jewish classes with her just because i had nothing else to do and i was fascinated by it and i weirdly like posted a picture on twitter 15 years ago that was me holding a book about judaism and i said like attention jewish guys who make great husbands i'm willing to convert and it was just a joke you know i just obviously in my mind heard jewish guys make great husbands and i thought like that would be a great life for me and then you know 15 years later it was happening and and i manifested it in some way that i didn't even understand at the time which is so funny i really think that the thing about judaism that i really connected to was the idea that you're allowed to question everything and you're actually expected to question everything. Right. So when I started to convert to Judaism, I was really nervous that I was going to end up having to do something that didn't align with me internally and that I would be faking it. And that really, really scared me. I didn't want to sign up for something that didn't feel right to me. Right. And it was when I voiced that concern and the rabbi was like, great. These are exactly the conversations we should be having. I was thinking, wow, I'm in the right place. Has it been additive for you? Yeah, it has. I don't connect my faith to my life working out with religion, but I really like this feeling I have with Judaism, where it's this framework that we can always come back to when we're feeling a little out of sorts. Simon and I travel, we work, and it's like, let's do Shabbat together. Let's have friends over. Let's have dinner. Simon's really good at saying, let's light the candles tonight and talk about our week. And let's talk about what we want to do better next week. And let's reconnect and let's be grateful for each other. That stuff is really comforting to have. And I chose a partner who is very sentimental and very, you know, focused on a connection and constantly reaffirming the connection and reestablishing it. And to me, there's a connection with Judaism in that because, I don't know, it's like inherently a part of the culture.

I also think we grew up around chaos and there's something about the Jewish religion that is the opposite of that. It's like, I've clinged to Judaism through Aaron and Simon and his parents, Marina and Anatoly and the siblings, Masha and Al. It's like, it's this beautiful family that, you know, they, they, they are so loving to one another. And it's not that our family wasn't loving, of course, but it was just chaos. And there's something about, about the way that the families that I've now met that practice Judaism that it's, it's, it's, it's chaos in a more beautiful way. Does that make sense? Like it's the coming together. It's the family, it's the connecting, it's the conversations, it's the It's the, it's the showing up for one another. And we've all through Aaron and Simon. Now we get to experience it's, it's, it's a whole new experience for our family. That's so beautiful.

Yeah. Don't you know any nice Jewish husbands for your sister? Oh my God, that would be amazing. You know what? I think I feel season three of nobody wants this coming along.

Oh, my gosh. Should we talk nobody wants this?

Yes, because this is a perfect segue because you obviously wrote this wildly successful show for Netflix based on, well, loosely semi based on your relationship with Simon and the conversion and Sarah, you produced it. I mean, again, like I cannot tell you how thrilling it was when you guys were like, yeah, we're, we're like, I don't know. We're just working on, I'm sure it's nothing. Like we're doing this show for Netflix and then it's like the biggest hit of the year and Emmy nominated. So proud. So how, how did you parlay that this story of your life? Like, how did you even start to, were you like, this is just a great story? Cause because you're a writer, you're like, oh, this is comedy gold. Like I'm writing all this real life stuff down and I'm going to turn it into a TV show.

It was really Ollie. It was Ollie.

Yeah, it was a big part was Ollie. Ollie Opes, who's our producing partner and manager at Three Arts. No, honestly, when I when I met Simon, I kind of stopped writing because I just come off of a pilot that I had shot that did get made that I really thought should get made. I was very kind of like disenchanted with everything. and I was almost 36 and I was sort of like, I don't know what I'm chasing, but I don't really want to chase it anymore. I really want to be a wife and a mom and like, that's my next chapter. And so when I met someone who was not in entertainment, really in this side of it, you know, he wasn't chasing that thing. And we started to establish this sort of domestic life together. I just thought this is kind of what I want now. And this isn't really funny, right? like, what am I going to write about? I was always writing about my failures or bad dates or bad relationships. And that was really funny to me. And there wasn't anything funny about this to me. I was like, it's really sweet and wholesome and like, and I read that you were slightly worried

that that was going to make you like a less sharp comedian writer. Yeah, I definitely was because

Simon has never dated anyone who's in the spotlight like this. He's never dated anyone whose life is out there. He's very private. He comes from an immigrant family. Like you don't talk about anything so the idea that i was going to write something that was inspired by our life was very challenging for us at first because simon was like no you can't do that like you can't write about us that's no you can't make make fun of my family like that's not okay so it kind of shut me down creatively i didn't really know what to pull from if i wasn't allowed to make fun of my relationship i didn't really know what i was supposed to write about and ollie was kind of like what are you doing with your life like why aren't you writing this is so weird we should write about this and find a way to do it and so he pushed me to and then and then and then i did it and i found a way to not make it in a lot of ways simon probably pushed me to to tell the better story which is the more wholesome story which is about these two two people loving each other instead of it being all about the comedy yeah it wasn't about making fun of this connection it was about celebrating it and you know the irony is that i feared it wouldn't be funny or interesting enough to write about and then you know unintentionally it ended up being this like celebration of healthy love and the celebration of like grown-up love and two people who really should be able to make it work trying really hard to get over their shit for each other. And that absolutely is what we were doing in real life. I just didn't really realize that that was going to resonate for everyone, that part of it. And Sarah, what's

your role in it? What do you, from a hands-on perspective, are you coming up with story? What

does a producer do? Yeah. I mean, when it came to this specific, this was just one of the five projects that we we had an overall deal at at 20th and this was sort of cool by the way i mean which is so cool but as you know it's impossible you think you have something great you know we were really developing things that we thought were really good and edgy and funny and had all the things and even if someone buys it it dies you know it's like it's crazy it's like just when when you're selling, you never know when to celebrate in this business. So Shiksa was one of five, which was I think one of five projects.

we had in development under our deal and originally we had sold shiksa i think it was just me ollie and aaron in the room we sold it to 20th they were like yeah this is this is great this is great and i started thinking to myself i was like this business is so cut throat like how are we how is this not going to be one of the five other projects that is never going to see the light of day like what do we do? How do we actually get this freaking bot? So I was like, I think we need to bring in like someone major to come on board. And I think this person needs to come on board and their name and their influence and their, it's going to help. It's going to, as we know, it's like a package situation. Like you got to, you know, whatever. So we brought Steve Levitan on who created Modern Family. And, and so that's what a producer does. A producer is like, how can we get this bought? How can we actually put ourselves in the best position to get this on the air? And so from there, you know, you have your relationships at places. I had a relationship at Netflix. And then once you're there, then yeah, I'm involved in breaking story and storylines and editing and on set. That was season one. But this is Aaron's show. You know, I mean, Aaron's creator and i'm just you know and then yeah so it's like i'm not i'm not a writer by any means but but you're so funny and you're so clever i have a pretty good idea of like what people want i understand what people want you know yeah i think that's right yeah and so you know you're involved in casting and you're involved in in all of those things

so what is it like now that you're you know it's like you guys are how old are you 42 and 44 yeah so how what is it like to like at 42 and 44 have this monster hit I mean it's really validating

it is really validating and it's cool I mean there's nothing I mean I I think that you know we it's so weird like no one ever I mean no it's hard for people to let you enjoy things you know because it's always about what's gonna happen next whether it's your baby everyone's asking relationship or it's your show and by the way as big as a hit as the show was you know people will be on to the next thing you know a year from now and that that just naturally happens. And so I can only speak for myself. I'm trying to really enjoy it. You know, for me as a writer, I think that, you know, when you're a writer, you're putting your thoughts and your views on the world and a relationship. I mean, you're married to one out in the world to see what people think of it. And I've done it many times. You know, when people say to me, like, this is so crazy for you, like your first show and it's a hit. I'm like, bitch, this is my first show. This is just my first hit. So I've had a lot of stuff that I've tried to put out there. And when you're getting feedback that's like, it's missing this, or it's missing that, or you don't really write real jokes or hard jokes, or it's not really about anything. There's no big event that's happening. What's the engine? It makes you think like, maybe I'm not cut out for this, or maybe I don't have what it takes. So to have this land the way that it did really kind of undid a lot of those fears that had been instilled in me, which was like,

I don't have it. That's so great. And do you feel like it kind of paved those cracks over like and gave you more confidence? Yeah, because the things that I was

told I didn't have as a writer are the things that people like about the show. So I don't think that I could write the next James Bond movie. I don't think that is what I'm right for, you know? I just think that there's a lane now that I can do and I don't feel a need to be in every lane. I'm happy to be good at this lane. I'm happy to be good at the rom-com lane. I like this lane. I don't need to be all things to all people because I just don't think I'm capable of it.

We need rom-coms in this day and age anyway, guys.

I think, by the way, we have one for you.

Oh, great.

Well, I'm retired.

Oh, you're going to have to unretire, honey. Yeah. Okay. It's like a vasectomy. They can be

undone. That's true. But you know, Aaron, it's so true. It's like, I remember the studio saying to us about one project or whatever, like it reads like a play, you know, it's, it reads like a play. Like it's not, you know, and Aaron's like, but that's how I write. Like I not, not Shiksa, but it was like another project. She's like, but I write, I, I have, that's how people talk that's how people connect that's how relationships evolve like it's long-winded conversations with awkward pauses

And, and, you know, and it turns out that like, she didn't change her style to fit into what, you know, executives want. She's like, well, this is just how I write. If it's not going to get bought, it's just not going to get bought. And we have a million other things we can do, you know, and nobody wants this reads like a play because that's how people talk. And that's how you fall in love with characters, you know? So it's, oh, sorry, go ahead.

no i was just going to say i think when it comes to talking about like not knowing if your career is going to work out or not knowing if your relationship is going to work out and all these things and having faith it's like the thing that i've learned is when you're dreaming about your perfect partner your perfect job like you don't even know your own potential it could be so much better than you even are imagining and so when you open it up to being different than how you see it it's probably going to end up being better than you thought it was, but different. Maybe being a stepmom is literally going to be the most rewarding thing that you've ever felt, or it's going to be the relationship that you didn't realize you were ever going to have. It's like with my engagement ring. I didn't even know my own potential. I was sending this guy rings that were very small. I had no idea. When he gave me something I didn't want, it was going to be even

better than I had imagined. That is an insane, like what, where did, sometimes we don't even know our own potential, but it does. Doesn't it kill you GP and Aaron, you know, when you like thinking, going back to our twenties and our thirties and, you know, obviously we speak to women on our podcast. I think most of your audience is probably female. Don't you just want to shake the 27 year olds that write us going like I'm turning 30. My life is over. I don't know what I'm doing. You're like, Oh my God, you're an infant. The best years are ahead of you. And you can't, we can only look at it. We can only look at it through that lens now that we're here and that life is now good. And you can't see that when you're 30, but God, I mean,

third, our twenties suck so bad. The twenties are, it's, it's like a double bind is the twenties are so inherently difficult. None of us know who the fuck we are, what we're doing or where we're trying to go. And then we have this incredible societal pressure that we're supposed to be married and have a kid by the time we're 30. I don't know where, I mean, this is like a relic from the days of having to have kids when you're 16. It's so crazy. That's the one thing that I wish the most is that the 30s are the most incredible time for real discovery. That's when you really start to get a sense of who you are and what you want. You can start, I wasn't married when I was 30. You know, I, I didn't have a kid when I was 30. I, and I felt so much pressure. I felt like I was failing, you know, I felt, and it's so stupid as you say, like the 30, 30 is so young. And especially now with like fertility technology, you know, you can, you can, there's no, there's no time pressure the way that there used to be as well.

Yeah. Well, and the time that you're just starting to kind of discover your career self and figure out who you are is right when you're supposed to be having the baby and getting married. And it's really hard. Well, that's right.

When they're telling you your eggs are getting old. Yeah, exactly. Like it's exactly right. When you're feeling like I'm living up to my potential, I'm doing the thing I want to be doing in my career. It's like, oh, well, your eggs are going to be, you know, of no use in two years. I mean, it's just.

Yeah. Can you, are you guys allowed to tell me any little tidbit, any little teaser on season two? When does it come out? First of all.

It comes out October 23rd. I mean, the season one was, you know, these two people meeting and figuring out what to do with these feelings. And it ended with him choosing her over his career. And so season two is figuring out how they're supposed to make that work. It's really what the next four months look like in that relationship. Oh, I'm so excited. I'm really

excited. I feel really good about it. I have to say, I feel really good. And I have to say too, Like I, I love so much this, like, and you touched on it earlier, something that's so original about the show, which is like a paradigm of a good, healthy relationship. And people, you know, so often we see in romantic comedies, it's like the girl, you know, being stood up and it's like all the examples of terrible guys. And it's like, she has to traverse through a series of bad guys in order to, and I just love that. It's just about these two really good people that are committed to this.

Cause I mean, you're in a great relationship. I'm sure you've experienced a version of this, which is being in toxic, complicated relationships is a little easy because you always have something you can blame for why it's not working. And you can always make it the other person's fault. And you can kind of behave badly the whole time because it's like, there are no rules. And then when you meet someone and you're in a healthy relationship, you have to be- All your shit gets exposed. Yes, it really does. You can't blame them for everything because they're not cheating and lying and pulling shit and saying one thing and doing another. They're showing up. And so you have to show up and you have to speak respectfully and you have to listen to their version of the story and you have to like better yourself and you can't slam doors and you can't cuss them out. And you have to like be a real person. And I think that that felt really interesting to me to have that be the relationship that you analyze when you really wanna be good enough for the relationship because that person's showing up.

I couldn't agree with you more. And I think we need more examples of that in the culture. Yeah.

Yeah. Don't you feel like we're so used to seeing the dynamic in, you know, modern day television where it's like, it's the guy that's unsure. It's like the guy that's like, I don't know, like, I don't know. And it's usually the girl like really wanting the commitment. Right. And I think that's something else that people really gravitated to was seeing that reversal. It's like, it was nice to see the man know exactly what he wants. Like, I want you and I'm willing to, you know, do whatever it takes to be with you. And it was her, it was her kind of vacillating between, I don't know, I don't like my career, my this, like, it's just like, I think people really loved that dynamic as well.

There's a theme here, nice Jewish husbands. Yeah. I'm telling you, Sarah.

Sarah, be open to it. But I think also the more than that, I felt like I was sick of seeing dynamics in shows where you have a strong woman and the nice guy is sort of passive and soft. And you think in real life, this would never work. He would never be able to manage a woman like this. He would never be able to hold all of this and she wouldn't stay attracted to this guy. And so I really didn't want to show a dynamic that I couldn't see working in real life. That's so great. Wait. That's so amazing. Is Brad Jewish too? Yes.

Hello, Erin. Where have you been?

I don't know. For some reason, I didn't think of him as Jewish, but I guess he is Jewish too. And you're Jewish. God, Sarah, you really need to join the party.

I know. Well, I'm half technically, and some of my more religious friends don't accept me because my dad is the one who's Jewish.

but yeah but that's old school I mean reformed Judaism totally accepts father and mother I mean that was just when you didn't know who someone's father was you you just determined it by the mother because you knew for sure that was their mother but now I know guys there's DNA tests like

I also just say like I love this podcast so much I was saying to somebody you like I'm not gonna just now well I will to toot your horn a little bit but you are at the forefront of pivoting and doing things where you don't know how people are going to receive it. And like, nobody was doing podcasts when you started this podcast. I think when you started this podcast, I was like, what's a podcast? I'm not even kidding. And it's like so cool that to be on this podcast that I'm such a, I love this podcast. I listened to this podcast and I listened to like All In and The Daily. Yeah. Like that's it. Thank you, Sarah. So nice of you. No, I just like, you are, you are such a fricking trailblazer. And it's like, you're so inspiring to all of, to your friends, to people that don't. Oh my God. You got to be able to take, you're the worst at taking a compliment. No, everyone knows you're

amazing. Guys, stop talking about it. Oh my God. All right. Well, but it's just so nice of you to ask us to be on your podcast. No, I'm, I, you know, I love, you know, I really wanted to have you guys on because I think you are, I, you are, you both are like separately and together this incredibly, like, I love how outspoken you both are, how honest you both are. I love how you sort of clash and combine paradigms like, oh, we're supposed to be like, if we're pretty, then we can't have a personality and we can't have a brain and we can't like say the really true, true thing. Like I love how you guys are sort of punk rock in that way and how you're so yourselves. And I know you said earlier that you don't like confrontation, Sarah, but like one of my favorite things about you is how forthright you are, you know, and how you aren't afraid to say the confrontational thing when it needs to be said. So I just, I just, I'm really inspired by you guys and how, and I love seeing this like incredible success blossoming in your forties. And it's like, it's so exciting to see. And I think it's set such an amazing roadmap for other women who are like. you know, because so many of us are like, what are we doing? What direction should I go in? And like, could this ever happen? And so it's just so inspiring. I guess we're all really inspired by each other. It's cool.

It's true. It's also so helpful doing it with someone else. Like I really encourage young listeners, find a partner. Like I want my daughters to go to college, not because what they're going to major in is going to be the career path they take, but they're going to meet their people there. They're going to meet their future co-founders, their future mentors, their future people they're going to start businesses with or who they're going to work for. It's all about connection in every which way. And yeah, Aaron and I are sisters. So it's like a built-in situation, but not really. I mean, I do encourage people- No, but I think you're absolutely right.

Like the having a co-founder, right? Yes. Oh yeah. It's so, I mean, I wish that I had a co-founder. You know, I've, I've had to build my business by myself and as an artist, I was by myself. You know, I, I think you're absolutely right on that. Yeah. I mean, there are certain

things it's a, it's a, it's a solo mission. It's a one person thing, but I do encourage people to put yourself out there and, and find someone to do this with, to do guys go on bumble biz.

yeah and find yeah yeah okay i love you guys you're the best aaron i'll see you on the chat

in about eight seconds literally we'll be i'm sure we have like 26 missed messages on the chat what do you guys do you guys just like sit around and like can't talk about it oh whatever you guys get a life okay i mean what is this you're just like oh the laundry detergent when you want to talk about real shit, call me up. Okay. Guys, I love you both so much. Thank you so much for

having us. It was so good to have you on here. Thanks for tuning in. This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios. I hope you'll listen, follow, rate, and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.