Muse

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when you are pioneering anything or introducing new ideas to the culture you get criticized you do yeah did you hear about that i didn't find the one i found someone i respected and we made it the one in a sort of longing kind of view of love people understand each other as if by magic

nothing in itself is addictive on the one hand and then everything could be addictive if there's

an emptiness in that person that needs to be filled. I now know that nobody changes until they change their energy. And when you change your energy, you change your life. I'm Gwyneth

Paltrow. This is the Goop podcast, bringing together thought leaders, culture changers, creatives, founders, and CEOs, scientists, doctors, healers, and seekers here to start conversations because simply asking questions and listening has the power to change the way we see the world. here we go hello and welcome to the goop podcast i'm gwyneth paltrow today's guest is kara swisher kara is a tech journalist and has been covering silicon valley for decades she's interviewed tech giants from steve jobs to elon musk and is not afraid to hold truth to power in fact one of the first questions i asked kara is how she's so comfortable with confrontation we get into a lot today from the increasing presence of AI in the film and television industry, to how Silicon Valley and the people who run it have evolved over the years. And of course, Kara's new series on CNN, Kara Swisher Wants to Live Forever, where she investigates the myths and facts coming out of the booming longevity industry. So let's get to my conversation with Kara Swisher. can I ask you something that I personally want to know for my own career development sure how are you able to be so direct slash confrontational is that fair with people you not confrontational yeah you can use that word well I don't mean it in like I don't care yeah I mean it in yeah like I'm I sort of like sometimes I want to ask somebody a question and then I go to like, this is going to be painful for them or uncomfortable. And so I don't like, how do you do that? Cause I don't think it's,

I don't think it's rude to be clear with someone. Right. And I, sometimes I don't like the people that say, I don't mean to be a bitch, but cause that's always the rude question. Right. But I think when you ask someone something directly, really smart people appreciate it. Right. And I do think women do have an issue with being a good girl. Right. Don't fully be a good girl, like be polite but they confuse it with being saying what they want like same thing with money with women like when I used to manage people like all the men overestimated like and I hate to be tropey but it's true like this one guy's like you know I really think I need a raise and I said I'm actually thinking of firing you actually interesting that we have such different viewpoints about your career you know and he's like excuse me I'm like I've given you evaluation after evaluation that I'm thinking of firing it. And if you don't understand,

understand what I'm saying. It's really hard. And then the woman was doing really well and just, I offered a raise and she was like, oh, great. And I'm like, no, no, you need to ask for more because you deserve it and you should know. And it was really interesting, but I just find it, it never hurts me to do that. And you should do that more and they won't expect it from some people. Right. But it's not rude to ask a direct question.

Yeah. No, I think it's more just like handling my, my discomfort that's perceived. Right. So

that's my problem. Right. So you don't want to make, but why are you, what are you making them discomforted about when you ask a direct question? I think to your point around having been socialized

to be a good girl, the idea that I could ask a question that would make somebody feel like they have to defend themselves in some way. And I guess because I also have been the brunt of that for so long. Sure. And we talked about that when you came to code, right? And I think people do it to me for like clickbait. Like if they're not really trying to get to an answer that they think they're going to learn something from, or it's going to enlighten them, they they're thinking about the clicks. So I think that's why as well. But you're not doing that. So why do you put that? So there's

a difference between rude and clear or direct. And I think, and I think you, people play into it. I mean, just today, it was really interesting. I don't know if you saw Reese Witherspoon talked about AI in a very fine way. Like, we need to learn about this because women are 25% the usage. And she said it, and then everyone, all these people, especially when piled on, how dare you do this? And so I posted it, and I'm like, I'm not sure what to tell you, but she's telling you something that's actually accurate. And I've been a huge critic of AI, and we need to regulate it, and AI sucks, and et cetera. And I said, but she's telling you women need to learn about it because it's here and you're pretending it's not here and you're dragging her for it. And she and I had had a discussion about this because I did a morning show thing. And she's like, every time I say something, I better not say anything. I was like, no, you're right. Like, why are you not articulate? Now she won't say anything because she got dragged because what, well, she didn't say what you say. I was like, oh, so you're like going to police the things she says. Like, are you kidding me? Like she's never going to be able to talk about it. And so I was sort of perplexed as to why she got, she got shit for saying something I say all the time. Right. Which is like, why? Well, she was too peppy. I was like, oh, really? Did she not smile enough? Like, what are you talking about? And I'm, I'm, I'm worried. And then they come at me and I was like, all right, you want to fucking throw down with me? Like she's right. And so anyway, it's just, it's the same thing.

She is right. And I think, though, that this is the other thing, too. Certain women are expected to present in a certain way. And I think that's why I've messed people up so much along the way, because I was this thing and then I evolved into something else. And I think, you know, Reese is so brilliant. She works across so many different platforms and she's beautiful and she's wealthy and she's blonde. and how dare she. She can't say it because she's wealthy. I was like, really? I'm not really clear

why. You know, trolly, short, ugly people can say it. Like, I'm not sure what your message here is to someone like this. And what's interesting is one of the reasons she won't do an interview, she goes, I was like, you're hiding your intelligence. Like you, you really downplay. You're a crafty lady, like from what I can tell. She's brilliant. She's brilliant. And I was like,

you are hiding, you were pushing down. But why would she, you know what I mean? If it's like, if she's going to slightly stick her neck out to say something as innocuous is like, Hey guys, like we, this train has left the station. We better be relatively prepared. Like we better educate ourselves on something. And she gets dragged for it. Like, because you have to break

through that. You have to keep going. See, to me, you're not going to win. I mean, I do, but it's like so like and also what do you care about what random random people say i've come to not care that right right i mean i have elon musk dragging me so that's kind of fun a little bit no yes it is yes it is yes i love being called a cunt every day online it's great it's such how did this feud with elon and you start uh well actually i talked to him a lot you know i interviewed him more than anybody is i think maybe you even might have been at one of the events where we did him um you know well, he's a complex person. Let's begin with that used to be much more human and now something's happened. And then when you get to be that rich, I mean, you know, even you understand that, like people agree with you violently, like, oh, nice job. Like they never give adequate feedback. And so he started to get irritated by people who had feedback, like normal, critical feedback. And so we had been talking about after he bought Twitter, what, what he should do. And I had started some really interesting, innovative live events on Twitter by myself, and I had gotten a sponsor.

wrote me. He's like, well, how did you do this? And I was like, well, this is a really interesting platform. You could really compete with YouTube. There's going to be videos someday. We attracted five, 6,000 people when I did it. I spun it up in an hour, which is a really nice number. He goes, well, you should get to kind of talk about it. I was like, yeah, I'd be happy to, because I think it's really important to create new media organizations for media people and new opportunities for modernization. And then there was a story about, I had been at the French embassy and a guy came up to me from an Ukrainian, as it turned out, and he said, can you talk to Elon Musk about geofencing Crimea? I was like, what? Like he was part of the Ukraine defense ministry. And he said, Elon is geofencing Crimea. Can you talk to him? And I was like, what? Why is he doing, why does, why is he making battlefield decisions? And so I said, I'm not the one to talk I mean, you need to talk to our government about this, but okay. And there was a story about what happened here is he gave people Starlink and it's, this is going to be such a, like a ridiculous thing to have gotten a fight over. But there was a story in the Washington Post about working with him. And I felt he should have been paid for free Starlink to Ukraine. I thought it was an incredibly generous thing to do, but he also shouldn't have purview over battlefield decisions because he's American, he's a citizen, right? Like this is not his thing. And so one of the quotes in the Washington Post was, Elon's going to Elon. He's going to do whatever he wants. And I said, well, one, I think he should pay two and Elon's going to Elon. He's going to do what he wants. But American citizens shouldn't, a private citizen shouldn't be making these decisions for the US government, in my opinion. That's just, and his brother even was like, no good deed goes unpunished. And I said, yeah, it's true. And then I didn't hear from him for a while. And, and then I looked, I never look at my email and he'd sent me an email. You're an asshole for tweeting that. And I was like, what are you talking about? I'm defending you. Like, I don't know what you're talking about, but I don't, I think you shouldn't have that decision-making power. I'm sorry. I don't feel like that's like a most, and he, and he said, I'm never going to speak. He had done this before once when he was mad about someone, a friend, something Walt Mossberg tweeted. And I was like, do I look like Walt, you know, and again, the same thing. thing. And he's like, you're an asshole. And I, that was it. That was it. That was it. And then he started attacking when Paul Pelosi got attacked by that crazy QAnon person and almost got killed. He started posting, um, that it was a gay conspiracy, that he was his lover. And I was like, this is fucking heinous. Like, how dare you? And then he kept doing it with white supremacist stuff, Andrew Tate stuff. And I was like, what is wrong with you? And you had seen bits of it during COVID when he told me that only 15 people were going to die. And I was like, maybe not. I feel like a million is what usually happens during a plague historically. And then he

argued about when the government was closing his factories. And I said, look, we don't know what's happening. Maybe we should opt for safety over. And he got all furious about that. His mother got mad at me and it was just weird. Wow. They're so weird and tetchy. Like nothing I said was like, you look fat like which you did but that's fine like I didn't do that like other people did that was that was Ari Emanuel's picture not mine oh my god and I never made a comment about his looks

I don't know like these people yeah well it's interesting to me too because in a way you're sort of an instrument of their rise yes I am a hundred percent you are the person um well you are among a top few people in a very early fashion, identify these people right through, I imagine the work they're doing and you platform them, you amplify them, you give them prominence, voice, et cetera. Right. So how does that then sit? I don't know. I don't see it as a PR thing.

It's like, I covered them. Like I was the first person who covered a lot, like Jeff Bezos when he was poor, um, which he's not now apparently. Um, yeah. When you can rent Venice, that really helps. Um, so, uh, it's a little tone deaf, but in any case, um, I don't really care. I don't really, it's not my business. Um, so yeah, they were, they were all nobodies, right? Really. And I was covering industry. Most people disdained, right? The media people are like, oh, this isn't gonna like, we're the top dogs here. The media companies, whether it was Time Warner or whatever it happened to be. And I was like, I don't know, this internet thing seems like it could affect everything. And I think one of the things they appreciated and why I called my book, not just Burn Book, but a tech love story was because I was like, this is going to change everything from newspapers to me. So I really was a real early, early, early understander of it. And then who was

going to be successful and who wasn't was really. And how were you able to discern who was going to I wasn't always.

I thought initially.

You weren't.

I thought eBay was ridiculous and it was in the end, but initially I was like, I don't get it. Like a lot of stuff I didn't get, but I certainly, when I saw Google, I was like, oh, I see, you know, I see this. Or when he's, when Elon first started talking about Starlink, I remember him telling me about it. I was like, you're a hundred percent right. Like about these low earth satellites. Or when he started talking about Tesla and stuff like that, it was like, obviously. This is where history is going. And I think one of the problems is, is they don't have so lack of self-awareness that they, once they did one thing, they thought they were good at everything and they were experts on everything. So now like, do I really care what Elon Musk thinks about DEI? I do not. Nor should I care about, I like experts talking about it. So initially it was very innocent in a lot of ways, but then it quickly became about stealing your privacy, stealing your content, stealing IP. There were warning signals. Like I was walking through Google once with Larry Page and they had a room full of dark televisions on the wall everywhere, hundreds of televisions. And I'm like, what are you doing? Because they always had weird things. Like all of a sudden you'd see like a fish pond or something. They would have something weird happening. Have you been to Google? Yeah, once. I think we have a mutual, my friend,

Pat Keene. Do you know Pat Keene? Yes, yes, of course. So Pat, when he was at Google,

he took me sure it's cool it was cool it was like oh look here we're making kombucha and then over here we're doing this and so it was always something weird there's gonna be like a there there was one time there was a quonset hut they had in the office and they wanted to test out office things a quonset hut okay they thought it was interesting so it was always like that it was like you know suddenly there'd be a horse like right all right I feel like this whole wave of

founders were all about like being iconoclasts yes sometimes performatively so like we're gonna

we want to build a chairlift in San Francisco to help people up the hills. I was like, that seems stupid. That's not really. Well, both Gavin News and I at the time he was mayor, we were like in front of us there. And we were like, possibly no. Like, but they were, so we were walking through Google and, and he had all these television sets and I was like, what are you doing? And he goes, we're taping television. Like he talks like that. And I was like, all of, he's like all of television. And I was like, oh, for what? And he goes for search because we're going to learn how to search video and audio. And I was like, huh, interesting. Did you get permission from the copyright holders of all those television shows? Why do I need that? I said, because you're stealing. Like if you do it, no one else will. Same thing with books. They did the same. And I was like, because there's copyright. Everyone should have all the information. I was like, but you didn't pay for it. They did. And, and at the time he was like, what are you talking about? Information needs to be free. I said, but it isn't free. Like all these studios paid for this stuff and they own it and there's all these owners and well, they're keeping it from the people. And I'm like, yeah, but now you're taking it and selling it back to the people. Anyway, it was at the time.

That seemed to be an early issue, right? With music. I mean, you know this, right? Exactly. I mean, all those Napster fights. Yeah, I remember it well. And still to this day, I mean, that business model is just completely...

But they're doing it now. Like right now with content, like they scrape my content. I'm sure they've scraped your... We see bots on Goop all the time. Right, all the time. Not just that, you, yourself. Oh, yeah. There's enough material to make a bot of you. Like here's Gwyneth. Gwyneth's AI, essentially.

Right, then can I fucking retire if that's the case?

No, they're not going to give you the money, but they do it all the time. They make, Grammarly made a whole Kara Swisher advice thing without Kara Swisher's opinion about it. Is that so? Like, I threatened to, I mean, I was like, I'm going to sue you fuckers. Like, what are you doing? But they can do that. And then in the worst way, you as a parent understand this, they're doing, and it's bad for our health too, by the way, is AI bots. And I've been interviewing the parents of kids who commit suicide for years, for two years now, and saying, this is, this is dangerous. They are acting like therapists and friends and a human being having these interactions would be arrested for what these people are doing, but they don't care. They just put it out for 13 year olds, like, and don't think they have responsibility for their shoddy, shitty products.

Right. And what's the regulatory and what? Right. And, and it's sort of, they're, they're paying the bill now, your, your favorite person, Mark Zuckerberg and the impact that he's had on.

Right. They've amplified and weaponized almost everything and then for their shareholder benefit. And that to me is like, great, I love innovation, but excuse me, you don't pay the cost. The rest of us have to pay for yours.

How did we get here as a culture? I mean, obviously there's so much revenue and profit driving this whole thing. Of course, that's like at the heart of it, but like, how do you think we got to this place in culture where sort of nothing matters and, and now all that matters is these kind of super rich white dudes who are breaking rules, setting rules, you know, seemingly like not.

caring so much about the downstream impact on everything. They don't think they're responsible

for the dead. Like I had an interview, famous interview with Zuckerberg, where we talked about anti-Semitism. And I was like, what you're doing at one point, he said, Holocaust deniers don't mean to lie. And I was like, they do. That's the definition. But then I let him talk because I need you to understand his mentality, which was, I am not responsible for everything downstream. Like it doesn't matter. But if he was a chemical person dumping shit into the river, he gets sued. I mean, initially, none of those people got sued. And it takes about 25 years, because I don't think, how do we get here? I think we have an idolatry of innovators, an idolatry of wealth. And if you're wealthy, you must be smarter. When they got all manner of shortcuts, and the innovations that they took advantage of were paid by the American public, by the way. The internet was invented by the United States government, not them. And it's great to be innovative and make these things and this rocket stuff. I'm so impressed by what SpaceX is doing. We can argue about the valuation of it, but it's still astonishing. And at the same time, why does a small homogeneous group of people get to decide for the rest of us?

Yeah, I'm fascinated by it because I feel like there's something so endemic to being an American about this idea of like- Yes, of course. Go West, young man. Right, and this idea that anybody can do it from whatever socioeconomic background and that- sort of true. Right. And that we, but that we can, we put this hierarchy where it's like, we're so hungry for a hierarchy in order to make sense of our lives or something like that. And we imbue these guys like with this extraordinary, I don't know, like.

Godlike. Godlike. Right. Right. But they're not, that's the, the problem is, is that when I was writing for the New York Times, I was just doing cons because I wanted everyone to hear it. Everyone's like, why did you just do it for the New York Times? I'm like, cause people, they pay attention to it. And therefore I was doing it at my website and it got impact, but it didn't have the impact. So I did a, the first story I did was talking about, it was called the expensive education of Mark Zuckerberg. And it was about our cost, not his, right? He's learning on the job, but he controls social, he controls communications. And he's really not very smart about these big societal issues. Actually quite not. Not smart how, because he's. He's not capable of deciding how to enforce free speech and what hate speech is. It should come down to our elected officials should figure it out, right? Our judges, our lawyers, our citizens. I mean, it's in the constitution, right? Right, exactly. But it's one of the things that drove me crazy. I felt like, did you read the First Amendment? Because it says the government shall make no law, not you. You can control your products so that everybody, maybe that you have to pull back on some stuff, but you make it safe, just like beef. You know, there is bad beef or bad food, but people have to pay, well, they don't have to pay enough for it. But anyway, one of the things that I really got struck by in 2019, I wrote a column where I said Trump was getting really dangerous online, I thought. And I reminded, I'd studied the Holocaust. I'd studied all manner of propaganda in college. And I was like, what he's doing is very dangerous to let him go on. And I get the whole thing. He's the president. And so whatever he says, we're not used to whatever demented diarrhea he pumps out every day, which is getting worse because grandpa's losing it a little bit. That's freeze. It's good. It's diarrhea. It's what it is. It's like, and we're like, hmm, what does this diarrhea mean? I'm like, he's old and crazy and racist. Like, why are we, every time someone goes to me, can you believe what he said? I go, yes, I do. Yes, I do. Grandpa's crazy. grandpa's race is crazy and adult so yeah I kind of and also misogynist sexual harasser like we got we got all the information we need on this fella um and it's always like I can't believe it that's what drives me crazy about the left I think what people are saying is

you know this no matter how real imagined right performative or not whatever it is like whatever whatever's happening it is never not unbelievable which is good to say can you believe it like that the strat like whatever his strategy is it's impossible to figure it out and know what it is and sort of be able to rest your laurels on oh it's this or that the same thing happens around

political discourse was i wrote a column where i said and i'm not gonna tell you the date i wrote this. I wrote a column saying Trump is on par to start. What if he loses the election? I'm going to give you a hypothetical. If he loses the election, he's going to tweet out to his followers or whatever platform he happens to be on Truthout to do something about it. And in a physical way, stop the votes from being counted. He will do something in the real world. And so online hate will jump offline. I said, and there's going to be an insert.

insurrection. And I used the word insurrection, which was crazy. And I said, what would you do? I pose this question to all these leaders and they're like, well, we take them off the platform. I'm like, or we do this, we do that. And I said, and they said, what would you do? I said, I wouldn't have let it get this bad to begin with, because this is where it was headed very clearly. I wrote it in 2019, which was crazy in the fall of 2000. I was like, this is exactly where it's headed because you could see the movement. And at the time I got so much pushback from Facebook and Twitter. They were like, how dare you say we are insurrectionists? And I said, no, you're handmaidens to sedition is what you are and very willing ones because you make a lot of money. And so I was like, this is exactly what's going to happen. Like it's, it's so easy to see and I hope it doesn't, but it's not that hard to figure it out. And so that's the kind of stuff is they just allow an enormous amount of misinformation and disinformation to go around. They benefit from it. And then they are so rich now, so rich, crazy rich. Our legislators are unable to do any legislation anywhere in the country. So states try to do it on some level. And the same thing is happening now around AI. And like I said, these parents, these lawsuits that are happening, they're not going to get out of it. Eventually they will pay the price. But boy, are they good at, like right now with AI. Trump is a coin operated president. Who was standing in the front row of that inaugural? It wasn't the elected officials. It was Jeff Bezos. It was Sundar Pichai from Google. It was Mark Zuckerberg, all their various wives. And they were there. That's who was sitting. Sergey Brin was in the back. Sam Alton was there. Tim Cook was there. Why were they there? Because he's a coin operator. at least we understand Trump on some level. He's a corrupt coin-operated president. So not that I like that, but I get him.

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Can we talk about Sam Altman for a second? Yeah, sure. Because obviously he's, he's a, he's an interesting figure.

So what is your take on Sam Altman? I met him when he was 19, when he had a company called Looped, 19 or 20 maybe.

See, this is what I'm saying. You meet all of these guys so early and you kind of get, you know, adjacencies in these.

Or you understand them a little better. You saw them before, in the before times. Often people are exactly the way, rich, they're the same, they're jerks rich and they're jerks poor. Right. You know, it doesn't really matter. Some people evolve. Mark Cuban couldn't be a more wonderful person now. He's a great guy. Nice guy. And, but he was kind of a frat bro jerk when I met him. I'm like, yeah, we had a lot of fuck you texts back and forth. No fuck.

you. No, fuck you. You seem like you have a lot of those. I do, but they end up being friends. Okay. I just had lunch with him. He's great, but he's doing all this stuff around prescription drugs. That is great. It's amazing. Amazing. Really amazing. Does he need to do this? Could he be on a boat in the South of France enjoying himself? Certainly. But some people are really

motivated by solving problems. And then I think it's a, it's a values thing, right? It's like, I, I recognize a problem or I recognize an injustice and they sort of throw their weight.

Like a Mackenzie Scott, right? Right. Perfect example. And we'll talk about her later because she's been giving a lot of money to health initiatives that are really important in the now for a lot of people versus themselves. And Sam is complicated. So he, one of the few gay people, I mean, out gay people, there's Tim Cook, him. So that's an interesting thing to take into mind because it's very, it's not misogynist. It is misogynist. It's a different kind of misogyny. You know what I mean? It's kind of not as explicit. But, you know, it's also- But I think, you know, to be- There's homophobia. Exactly. There's stuff like that. So in that time, it was different for sure. And so I was always interested in him. And, you know, he also had a sort of a reputation for being manipulative, which I'm, you saw the Ronan Farrow piece, what they thought was pretty fair, although Sam didn't. I didn't read it actually, but. Yeah. It's an interesting piece. It's complicated. And one of the things he has is he's sort of, he's an aims to please person. At the same time, he can seem disingenuous at the same, which I'm like, I'm sorry, get in line. Like, you want to stack ranks disingenuous? I'm putting Peter Thiel up near the top, Mark Andreessen and Musk. So I don't know, which is a terrible way to live, but, um, but so he was, uh, so he was really complicated. I like Sam. I actually do. At the same time, I recognize what he's doing. He's a real hustler and, you know, he's not as concerned with safety and less so we, he and I had a back and forth in this document series about that, about these kids, about the AI chatbots. I'm like, I think you're, I think someone should go to jail here versus, or take responsibility or at least be sued. So these parents get some. You said that to his face? Yes.

See, this is what I'm talking about.

So, you know, he's complicated. And I think Ronan, I think very fairly depicted the uneasiness around him, you know, in terms of who are these leaders who are running companies that are going to have such massive implications on our society. Now, we never knew the head of Lockheed or the head of whatever, but if you go back in history, Henry Ford had, you know, great industrialists, the car, thanks for the car, but huge anti-Semite. He used his Ford dealerships to put out this Dearborn newspaper he put out that was full of anti-Jewish, anti-Black, anti-women, whatever, whatever. He was just a miserable son of a bitch. Same thing. Like he, he had a lot of impact during that time period because of his crazy. Yeah.

And imagine with so much less distribution, like everybody has.

Right, exactly. And so these people are making, so Sam is complicated, I would say. And I think probably, I might, I might predict he might not be head of OpenAI. There's a lot of.

That's what I was going to ask you next.

Yes, I think so. I think there's some, there's some real questions. The journal just said a piece about his investments. You know, I don't make any money from OpenAI. I go, oh, stop it. You're going to. There are benefits for you. He has other investments. They're a little bit opaque for people. And if you're a public company, you can't be this opaque. And so he's going to have to answer for that. That said, a lot of his critics can be a little high-handed. Like they're all making money. Like I left open AI so I could be pure and do safety. And I just took $2 billion from Andreessen Horowitz. I'm like, oh, got it. Okay. You're

helping the people. But isn't there something, I don't know, for me, I feel like he's sort of the fall guy for AI. Like he seems like he can never win in the public forum, you know, whichever.

He said a lot of stupid things. Like he's like, do you see how much? Not that one he said. I mean, yes, of course I've said dumb things. I'm sure you've had. Sure. But I didn't say, you know, having children takes a lot of energy. So why are we worried about AI? I was like, didn't you just had a baby? First of all, he just had a baby, which I'm very happy for him. But I was like, that's really not something you should, like that one, or Zuckerberg saying Holocaust deniers don't mean to lie. If you're in those positions of authority, you might want to like think carefully about how you put stuff out.

But at the same time, like, and I'm not defending anybody, but people are human, people learn on the job, especially in a completely new sector, people sort of discover who they are and what their principles are around it and, you know, where their boundaries are and like. Except they have no price.

Like, Mark Zuckerberg can't be fired. His children can't be fired. Right. You can be fired. I can be fired. I can be fired. You know, well, actually, I work for myself, so I'm not going to ever be fired. But, you know, whatever. it's, they don't have any accountability. So there's no ability to do anything about it. And one of the things that I've noticed among all the tech moguls is they can't shut up about anything. Like, and now it's extending to other people, like Bill Ackman, who's a famous hedge fund person. Well, they're empowered by their own success and lauding. Why am I listening to him on something that he doesn't know anything about? Like, and so they really, you know, you'll see with all of them, they're sort of like, I might as well tell you about this and that. But the fact of the matter is they do have their hooks into all our legislators. They have PACs. These money going to these PACs is insane. I disagree with that just structurally. No, we've got to get rid of Citizens United, but not just that. These PAC structures, it doesn't always work. Look, Elon tried to effect an election in Wisconsin, I think it was, yeah, Wisconsin, and he lost. He spent 25 million because he's incredibly unattractive spokesperson for the people, right? You don't like the jumping? No, that cheese hat did him in. When I saw the cheese hat, I was like, it's done. The people of Wisconsin do not like frolicking in her cheese hat. They like their cheese hats, but not on you. And so it's, uh, it's really, it's the lack of accountability, but I do think regular people, what they're trying to do is, is break us apart and show our differences versus our commonalities, the tech, the tech technologies, it breaks us, it is, it is meant enragement equals engagement. It's true. You know, except that we have a lot in common. We, and, and people are starting to like, look, you have Marjorie Taylor Greene agreeing with me about what we need to do about chatbots or whatever, because then you start to, like she was just, the other day she was on, um, Caitlin Collins on CNN with, uh, Ro Khanna and, and, and her were talking about the war and that where they agree. And I literally texted Ro and I was like, what the actual fuck is happening here? Like, what is happening? There was overlap. No, they were agreeing. Right. And I was like, where are we? And I was like, kind of happy about that. Like, we're, look, we're going to disagree. And she'll go back to some stupid trans thing she'll say, which she can't help herself. The rubber band always goes back to shape, right? On certain issues. Maybe she'll become enlightened about that. I don't know. I feel like that whole issue is such a like red herring. Oh, it's a red herring. There's like, I have interviewed so many people. I've interviewed one guy. It's like, this is the most important issue. I go, how many people? Please.

How many people?

But they know it riles people up. Yes, it does. And it certainly does because it goes to fairness, I guess, on some level, but it's so stupid. It's such a, like, this is what they're doing. They're doing this with the, with the shiny objects. And, but online, the shiny objects become super toxic and it doesn't have to be online. It can be Fox news. Like my mother called me about trans fencers recently. And I was like, it's not an issue. Was she upset? Yes. It's terrible. You mean fencing? Fencing. How many are there, mom? None? Oh, okay. I think we can move along. And by the way, you're 92. It doesn't really matter for you. Like in the end. I just think it's interesting. Like I always try to think of trans fensers. We must do something about it. Children's poverty.

No, no, no. I just always try to think about like, what is underneath something that becomes so motivating, like so urgent for people, you know? And is it, what is it? What is the fear underneath this sort of drummed up threat of trans people? I don't think it's actually there.

years ago, I wrote a story, which was really interesting. It was around celebrity stuff. So do you remember when Roseanne called Valerie Jarrett a terrible name, a terrible, she, she compared her to remember that. So she got drummed out justifiably, by the way, because she's, she's crackers, I gotta say. Um, and come on, let's be, I'm just saying, watch her. Okay. Allegedly. Anyway. Um, so, uh, so she gets drummed out and then, um, Sam B who I love is, who's terrific, said something about Ivanka, called her name, got in trouble. Same thing. Probably shouldn't have done it. I don't like the name calling. Don't like it. Don't like it. Unless you're in Britain and then you can use it freely, whatever that particular word. You know what? Just, okay. Don't love it. I get it. But I'm just saying in Britain, it's sort of like. In Britain, it's less. Less. But like any name calling, it's so juvenile. Or at least do with a British accent. Anyway. So I'm just teasing. It's not great. So she got in trouble. So there was all this online thing. And I was like, this is a lot of online thing for something. I get it, but it was crazy. So I got this company that watches bots. These are these bots that create situation. What happened was these bots said, can you believe Roseanne Barr? How dare she? But then the same British accent. Yeah. Right. Whatever that's I'm doing. I'm what I think bots sound like. Perfect. So this was a group, this was a bot. It was like, how dare she do it? But the same company was putting out stuff that said, she's right. It's true. So it was creating these fights and then humans got involved, but it was the bots who started it. The bots should be illegal. Exactly. And then the same company was on the Sambista. So it was the same company making the trouble. And then people, like it's attracted to an accident.

Those people are the see you next Tuesdays.

Yes, but it could be Iran. It could be Russia. It could be just companies just creating controversy. It could be political things. And so we're human beings. And so we're going to be attracted to a traffic accident and immediately go into tribalness. And so that's, that's to me, it's so, it's like so selfish on their, on their parts to not understand the deleterious impact they have on all of us.

I think they understand. I think they're just, you know, it's like Milton Friedman.

They just profit, profit, profit. Well, the first line of my book was, so it was capitalism after all. But what drives me crazy, I've never had a Hollywood person. and listen, I have lots of issues with Hollywood, go, I'm here for the people, Cara. I'm here to help everyone through my, some of them do it, but you know, like I'm here for the money. I'm selling the movie. I'm doing this same thing with like, I've never heard a banker go, what I really want is all of us to get along. I just, I don't expect it from them, but the, but the, the tech people always had to like, I'm a simple person. I'm here for the people. I'm here for, how many times did I have a conversation with Mark Zuckerberg about he's here for the community. And I was like, so why do you get, why don't, can't you be fired then if you're here for the community and we're all making decisions? Why do you get a stock that allows you to make every decision? Have you talked to him? No, not after the second, two times we did interviews. One, he sweat. If you remember the sweating one where he had to take his thing off. Not my fault. Not his fault. Did you make the room really hot? No, I did. Yes, I did. I did. I did everything. And then I gave him some chili peppers. No, he just had, he's just had a panic attack. That's all that happened. But I tried to help him by taking off his coat. Right. And then when he did the Holocaust thing, but I didn't say it. I actually tried to stop him. I was talking about Alex Jones. I was like, we shouldn't go to Holocaust. Right, right, right. Cause you're wrong. Like it's bad. And he did it himself. And also we treat them like children, like they're toddlers. Like, oh, what did he say? I'm like, he's really rich and he's really powerful. And we're treating them like. So what is the way forward through this stuff? I think some regulation, but not to quash innovation. Things naturally tend towards a monopoly. They tend to. But then you have these, it's like company towns. Like, how do we push innovation in this area? Where AI should be, there's a lot of cool innovations happening. And how do we avail itself? It's like saying, you know what? Like plain old telephone service was critical for economic development or the highway system. what stuff is critical for the future of everybody and what stuff and where should they be taxed on that like what if they had left telephone service just to the private companies do you know what would have happened we wouldn't have had it like only the rich would happen not the poor and so what is what is critical to to everything like same thing with health care the whole thing like why can only the rich benefit and why why did they get to make decisions like i had a discussion a long time ago with Mark when he was giving money to the newer something he was giving, they were giving enormous amounts of money and then they want kudos for their generosity, which I'm like, thanks, but really like, don't, that's what, that's what the money's for. Like, that's how you can assuage yourself. And, and he was like, well, I think it was generous. I was like, yeah, but why do you get to decide our priorities? Why don't we just tax you and let our elected, well, elected officials don't know. I go, yeah, but they're elected. Like, I don't like Ted Cruz, but he was elected, right? And so shouldn't he have more power over, I can't believe I'm saying

this. I've said it several times on this term, but, but he should. Sorry, but he should. The people of Texas picked him, you know, even Donald Trump should have more say, although he's gone

overboard. But he was elected. Okay. So that is a really good segue to talking about your show in terms of like how the wealthy people are sort of, you know, even in your telephone company example, what would have happened if it was stayed privatized. But before we get there, because I'm dying to talk to you about this TV show. So right now it's an AI free for all, like all the VCs, I have a small fund. Like everybody's, we're AI this, we're AI that. Are there- Are you going, Ben Affleck, I want one of those deals? I had that deal. Oh, you did? Oh yeah. Oh good. In 1990. Oh right. Yeah. You know, I don't know. In the nineties I had that. Yeah. You were active. There were a couple of you that were on board early. No, not that kind. I mean, like, oh yeah. So you went out with him. I forgot.

See, that's how much I pay attention.

No, me too.

I know. I forgot.

Listen, it was like 30 years ago at this point. Okay. You're excused. But like, you know, and, and, and I, there's always, I think it's investing is so interesting and it's a whole other learning curve, right? Because it's like, what are the ethics of this? And like.

we invested in open AI very early, not very, well, pretty early. And it's sort of like, okay, you know, and, and, and I still think the company has great legs and Sam could do the right thing. I think he has a great opportunity, but who are the founders in AI right now that are not yet household names that you're super interested in? Well, you know, it's interesting because

who is the Uber of this? Who is the, you know, who are, who are, who's going to be the AI for insurance. Who is the AI? I've noticed a lot of billboards. Oddly enough, there's a lot of Hollywood billboards, but suddenly there's the legal AI and Jude Law's face is right there. You were in that movie with him. You know, his face is there for legal AI. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. It's on Sunset. Like, I know it's called- Listen, I would buy anything that Jude Law sells. Yeah, of course. Right. Exactly. I was like, obviously the expert on legal AI is Jude Law, but fine, whatever. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Yeah. He looks good. He's a rather large thing. But so there's one for

legal there's one for though so you're saying if you're looking at ai as like infrastructure what

are the what are the interesting companies built on top early internet was yahoo you know google came along later um some of the search engines but then there was all manner of business in each area right whether it was software hardware whatever it happens to be so there's going to be a zillion companies and they'll fall away they'll some of them will it's most of them like there were a lot there were like 400 railroads at one time and then there weren't right now we of shitty Amtrak. Like, yay, we win. But that's really the problem is which ones are going to be it. And so if I were investing, I'd think, who is the leader in legal? Who is the leader in record keeping? Who is the leader in accounting? It's going to be the boring ones. And that's where the real money is going to be made. Okay. I have to talk about this show because I'm so. But do what you know, if you're making investments, what's something you have made

more efficient using AI? I mean, I would say primarily the most fundamental thing is my bandwidth. Right. Like I have, I use Granola to listen in on all my meetings. Like the, my, my enterprise AI is connected to everything. I get summaries. I can, it can look across my slack and tell me where there are bottlenecks on my team. So agentic is how you use it. Exactly. This terrible word they've made. Agentic. Yeah. It's very, very, I mean, so, and I'm, I would say like I am, I engage with AI all the time and I find it incredibly useful.

Right. But weren't you in the movie where they showed it off with, uh, with the assistant that talked to him all the time? Oh yeah. Think about that. Iron Man. Yeah. Iron Man. Yeah. You were in that movie. I saw you looked really nice in the suit, but, um, coming from you. Yeah, I know it was good. Well, it's always good to wear a metal suit that can kill people, but think about that character in the show. That's how it could be. Right. And I think if you look to science fiction, you can see where things, where you go, like just a wearable, like a wearable, like 10,000 steps. What the fuck does that mean? Well, what do you think about that? It doesn't mean anything right now, but with AI, you could go, what if something was in your ear, like you had an air pod or whatever it happened to be. And you, you ate it. Like I use this example, you had a donut and instead of like saying 10,000 steps, like, what does that mean? What is it? It's data without meaning. And it says, you know, you just say that donut, what you're willing to do is get up right now and go grab a cucumber and go for a walk. Use up that blood glucose. Right. Exactly. Like, but do, instead of monitoring, it would know. But that's all coming. I think monitoring is the first step. Yes, it is, but it's useful. When does it become, when does it, right now it's all kind of fun and interesting, but when is it, when is it provably useful to your life? It depends on the person.

Like, I've worn an aura ring forever. I had one. I'm not wearing it today.

Because I don't know what it's telling me. Right. It's not telling me enough yet.

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For me, it tells me a lot. And longitudinally, it tells me a lot. Yes, it does. Especially going through perimenopause and these big changes. Yep. Like, I really rely on, but I'm that kind of person.

You are, but it has to become very easy for people to understand why they're using it. And actually, a lot of science fiction does explain, like, that, Iron Man does. I'm always like, pay attention to Jarvis, because Jarvis is how it's going to be, like, or it should be. Right. Right. I've looked this up for you, but then it has to be accurate. Yeah. Right. It has to be scientifically proven. It can't give you bad information and it can't be fucking sneaky and do an all manner of things behind the scenes. And that's a lot of it is like, if you look at early internet sites, everyone's like, oh, it's glitchy. I'm like, it's not going to be, it's not going to be. So what are the applications that you could use, especially in health that are actually actionable information that you can use that are scientifically proven rather than just getting your information from some lady on Instagram, right?

There's science behind why 10,000 steps a day, more or less.

There is, but it's not, it doesn't, yes, but it's not enough. It's like, because it has to be individualized to you, right? And what you're doing that day.

But this is why it's about to get so exciting. It is, 100%. With the hyper-personalization of your data or assessments made on all of our data cheaply, And at scale, we will have the power as individuals to really positively impact how we feel.

If it is sent out among everybody. And that's the problem. Now it's whoever can pay the price, right? But isn't that how it starts? Not always. No, because right now there's so much great information out about people's behaviors and everything else. Our health is being sold back to us in a way that it needn't be. And a lot of the things, as you know, that you do for health are not profitable. It's not, it's not necessary, right? It's diet, it's sleep, it's exercise. 10 minutes in the sun. 10 minutes in the sun. It's social. It's social. Right, exactly. It's loving, yeah, social, loving your people. Social is number one. I mean, someone was like, what have you learned from this? One of the things I learned is like, don't be poor, be rich. That helps with longevity. Sorry to tell you, every study shows it. And the second thing is social interaction and being part of a whole in a community. And a lot of what online has done to us is hurt our health. It just has, just demonstrably using AI. Of course, we sit more, we scroll more. It's not just sedentary. We're lonely. We're isolated. Men, you know, young men spend too much time with born and young women, the self-esteem.

I interviewed your- Scott.

Yeah, yeah. No, that's his thing. A good talk about it. He should get the fuck offline so much. But he did. He went off Twitter. He feels better. But what's really the problem is that it's not being, it's being used to sell products to us before they're first, before many of them are baked and whether there's enough science to them. And secondly, you're looking for these easy fixes. But don't you think on some level,

like, and, and, and look, as like an early pioneer in wellness, we definitely got criticism. Speaking of planes are covered with bodies. But I think, you know, because really we were always in integrity and like the intent was not to exploit, like we've always got, got, come through it. But I do, but I, I do think there's a, for a certain, like, and again, it's like part of this American sort of optimization, let's try, let's, let's, let's see how, how much, how much we can be the stewards of our own outcomes, like across all different verticals. And I think with, I think with wellness, because of the pharmaceutical industrial complex, our medical complex, the way that the diabetic industrial, people are like, Hey, wait a minute. Like, I don't trust this. And I understand that, you know, there's all this, the, you know, these big pharma companies are giving me all this data about why all these drugs are going to help me. But like, what if I just try eating better or moving my body? And like from the experience, the felt experience of taking small steps to improve wellness, it's sort of, it all kind of bloomed. It is, but you know, it's sort of like saying,

you know, there's a lot, there's a quote I used in the book, which was, uh, from a philosopher, a French philosopher. And he's like, when you invent the ship, you invent the shipwreck. When you invent electricity, you invent the electric chair. Why do we have to disdain the tech good parts of the technology, which are really real, like, and will help us optimize if that's a word you want. I don't love that word because it's always used selfishly. I don't actually love it too, but I struggle to find another one. No, but it's to try to figure out why not think about what's better for the rest of us and the way it's being articulated to a lot of people. And especially because all these tech billionaires are paying for it. Some of them are doing it well. Larry Ellison's doing it well with institutes and science and everything else. What can we use? How can we take science and technology? Yes.

How can we take science and technology and use it for the betterment of everyone versus a small group of people? And it's done in this way.

Because everybody thinks about it the same way they think about like trickle-down economics, right? Like the rich people will do it and then we'll all get it.

But it's not ever true. It is not true. No, it's never true. And so what we do is, you know, there's been a lot, you know, again, Hollywood's a good way to look. Like there's a lot of movies and I'm recalling there was a Jodie Foster movie with Matt Damon where he's on the earth and can't get the medical attention. Oh, yeah. What was it called? I forget. the sky. She was crazy bitch up in the sky. Right. You know, with all the medical reasons, they have to get the kid to the bed. Great, great movie. Um, anyway, anyway, they, so it's, it's kept from everybody else. And so we're, what we're doing is it can optimize for each, but it's, this is not going to go down. And then there's all these issues about privacy concerns, like around all this health information. And so it's, so what prompted me is, first of all, I was at so many dinner parties, which I suspect you were at a lot of these, where all these guys, and they were all guys telling me about all their different things. First, it was intermittent fasting. There's a lot of shows that some of that is good if it's done correctly. Then it was soylent for a minute and a half, right? Remember that? We're going to optimize our time by not eating. I'm like, you are going to be a joyless piece of shit if you do that, but fine. A piece of bread is great. I hate to tell you. They tried one thing after the next. I'm taking this, I'm taking nats. Psychedelics. Psychedelics. All of which hyperbaric. Let's look. Do not do that. That one you must stop doing. Okay. I don't do hyperbaric. Okay, good. Cause it's not good. Like if, if oxygen is good, three times is better. I'm like, no, incorrect, incorrect answer. If you have the bends, knock yourself the fuck out. You know, you got a wound, I'm down for you to get in there, climb on in the coffin and it's great, but otherwise not good. Again, again, they're selling it to people. So three, 400, $500 to get in there and do something that is not going to help you scientifically proven so far. If it's proven, I'm down for it. But one of the things, so I was at these dinner parties and first thing that struck me was when women are doing these things, whether they're sucked into the diet complex, which I think is just as dangerous, right? This one diet after the next, um, when women it's- Which hopefully has been now undermined meaningfully by GLP ones. Yeah. It's a combination, right? It's going to be a combination. So one of, I'll get to that in a second, but when women do it, it's body dysmorphia. When men do it, it's body hacking. Like it pisses me off so much. Exactly. Right. Like repeating this stuff. So I was sort of like, measuring their boners while they sleep. Yes. I interviewed him. He's a poignant figure. I can't wait to watch that. You know, my son is

really intrigued by him and follows him, which I, Brian Johnson, who we're talking about.

But he's an experiment of one. He's not going to help the rest of us. That's what, so anyway, so then they started, he came, as I said, came to my conference and talked about brain health and his depression and everything else. And so I'm fine with it, but then it turns into this narcissistic and he says it, Brian Johnson says it, then I become this narcissistic Patrick Bateman motherfucker. And I'm like, yeah, that's correct. Because what you're doing doesn't help everybody. Why can't I just put it out there? I'm like, you can, but you're not really helping

people. But I would, I would push back on that only because like my son who follows this guy who, you know, I don't follow him. I, I'm not his demographic. Um, my son, I now hear things, you know, it's like, if it's coming from me, like, Hey, eat some greens. It's like, get it out of my face. But it's like, well, Brian Johnson says, you know, I really need to, you know, whatever it is. Like, and there are the right things like sleep better. Some of the stuff he says is absolutely right. Right. So I do think that.

Except then he moves on to hyperbaric chambers. Then he moves out to like wanting to inject yourself with. No, because he goes and does it. Like I'm going to go down and put, inject myself with things that are very dangerous. And so, but like if that, if he exists theoretically,

if it's theater, to sort of move the Overton window over or let people think about the idea

of access. If he's only with those messages, I guess, but you know, you yourself got slapped back to last Sunday over a couple of things, right? So I don't understand why they're allowed to do this when they're, if you look at like RFKs. And we didn't even do anything. I mean, And like, when you look back, it's like, oh, we talked about gluten-free food and- But here's the deal. Why do they, right now, the amplified weaponized information environment means people are getting some really bad information. I agree. And that's the, you have then a responsibility not to, and he says it in this interview. He's like, I'm like, but you're an influencer. And he's like, yeah, you have to play the game. I'm like, do you? If you really want to help people, why not, why not back gold standard tests that'll help all of us?

Because a lot of times, I would argue, those tests are never going to benefit a large corporation. Right. So like a lot of times, why doesn't he pay for them though? He should. That's what I said. He goes, well, how many can I pay for? I go a fucking buttload, my friend. Like, why does it have, like, you know what I mean? Like, why is there money spent on this stuff? If they're really going to be generous, look at Mackenzie Scott. He would need a double blind, like placebo backed study. On one thing would be immeasurable health for people. Right, as opposed to him by himself. Like, okay, you want to talk about red lights? Let's have a real study. It's very thin on the studies. Right. So let's have like, I'm not dismissing it. I'm just saying you're selling people all manner of what they do is there's one thing applies in a small way and helps inflammation or whatever. And then it solves everything. It like takes you out to dinner. It babysits your kids and it leaves you breakfast in the morning. It doesn't do that. Like, and so people, it's the same thing as the diet complex. Like, oh, if you do the grapefruit now, Gwyneth, you're going to do this. And it's one after the next. And it's not, it's not lifetime changes that we need to do to get everybody healthier. And a good example for GLP ones, groundbreaking tech, like, and then the other part, first, there's the misinformation I was furious about. Then there was all this narcissism. A lot online, just the online, like in the wellness space, like there was two wellness influencers. And I called them and I said, where'd you get this information? Well, we Googled it. I go, well, it's actually inaccurate completely. And I'm like, but you're saying it and people are believing you. Oh, we'll fix that. I'm like, no, no, no. You're telling, like, you've already done the damage. Like, how dare you? But they were benefiting and so was YouTube. And so I was irritated by the misinformation, just like I am in the political misinformation. It's really deceptive and dangerous for people. And so what I want to do is like, let's lean into marrying technology with socially responsible things and our government who should be caring for the people, that's government isn't there to make money. The government is there to help every allegedly is there. And so that's what I was looking at. And then I tried all the nonsense stuff. Cause it's funny. What did you try? Oh, I did. I got in the hyperbaric chamber and I came out looking like a baby. Um, it solved everything. It's astonishing how fantastic I worked from that single thing. Um, I did, you know, the red light, there's a funny scene of in like a coffin of red light. Like it's a $70,000 thing. It's crazy. Like, and again, it's in one of these high end health things and like promising all manner of stuff that it's, there's some promise around inflammation. There's some promise around hair. We did, we did the PRP thing. Again, willing to listen, like willing to see. I tried the PRP thing for my hair. It didn't work. Yeah. It doesn't work for some people. Some people don't like Rogaine because it gives them heart palpitations. What we should be pushing this stuff forward. Sometimes it works, but now it's unregulated. It's all these clinics that are everywhere. So what are people might be getting sold just like in the old days, snake oil salesman, right? I did ketamine because it's a really interesting

thing. And I saw that it was not great for you. I didn't like it. No, I don't have trauma that I'm trying to address. In certain cases, we should be doing these studies about how it helps, especially with SSRIs are so dangerous. Yeah, treatment-resistant depression. Right, exactly. But sometimes it doesn't work that long. Sometimes it does. And of course, it immediately, there's all these clinics unregulated. Why? If this is supposed to be something so amazing, why not really deploy it to the population and not let the drug companies run the show? But look, we have them. So how do we work with them responsibly so that it'll benefit the most people? Was there anything that you did that you thought, hey, there's really something to do this? Yes, a couple of things. I did a sound pod with Scott Galloway, which was fun, which was kooky. What's a sound pod? It's this new pod that vibrates and plays, you know, indigenous music at you and then you supposedly everything gets solved. But some stuff is obviously music has been helpful to humanity. So what is it that you could do? It's around meditation. I think Scott fell asleep, so it didn't really help him. No, that is, that is helpful. That means his parasympathetic kicked in. I was in the Equinox has these new sleep sleep rooms, you know, which is like, okay. I heard they're great. They are, but at the same time they cost like, like, you know what you could do? You could put a shade on, put that fucking phone down and lower the temp. I know, but like, there's such a tam for this kind of like a hundred percent. I'm fine if rich people want to do this. I'm good. Like take their money. It's great. I just want it to be deployed for everybody. Like what should, and in, in an exchange with Brian Johnson and I had, he goes, I'm just trying to give people things to do. Like you could eat olive oil. Correct. You could do, you know, more strength training or balance training. Absolutely. everyone can sleep more. And I was like, Brian, everyone can't sleep more. Poor people can't. They have two jobs. They've got the homelessness. They have, they're worried about healthcare.

Well, there's a real like Maslow's hierarchy to this, you know, it's like, of course, when you're talking about optimizing your, all of these things, you're talking about people at the top of the pyramid. And that's probably.

what you're cynical about. I'm cynical. It's because they're like, if only people did this, I'm like, you know, people can't like the same thing. Like when everyone lost their frigging mind over Zoran about me talking about grocery stores and poor neighborhoods, like they're like, how did he do communism? Although meanwhile, Trump's like investing in Intel and taking a dollar off of every vig of every deal that we do. Like, give me a break. You know, he's getting money for that steel thing, whatever the hell he's doing there. Like, give me a break with these people. But then he's like, we need healthy foods in poor neighborhoods and everyone's losing their minds. And I'm like, you know what? They can't get an apple. Yes, you're right. They need to eat an apple. We need to also have it in schools to talk about nutrition. I think it's a great idea. And I'm like, it's going to hurt the bedig. I'm like, is it? Because they're not selling the apples either. Because it's not like, so we may have to fund that. Why don't we talk about an apple? Like that's the kind of stuff. Like that doesn't, I'm here to sell you an apple. Like, can you imagine making, it's not really a great business, is it? Probably, probably, yeah. The Gwyneth apple will be beautiful though. It will come from the Gwyneth tree. She picked it, she wrapped it and sent it to you. Exactly. I think you should do that. Well, I have Goop Kitchen, which is kind of- Yes, you do. It's actually lovely. I love Goop Kitchen. Thank you very much. It's actually really well done.

Thank you very much. I mean, and that's-

But how can you then translate to cheaper, right?

Well, it's very difficult because- It is. What you're talking about is, I mean, we, in this country, we have made- Industrial farming. Industrial farming, so pervasive and so cheap. And then forget about highly refined and, you know, it's like everything is that we've made food product. It's not food, but those are people's expectations around pricing and it's understandable. But, you know, I mean, I know for me, I, I really wish we could go back to a culture around having your own garden, obviously in the Northeast and, but, you know, before World War II, almost all Americans grew something. Right. And even just that act of like growing something that you're picking and eating.

You know, I agree. I mean, one of the things that's interesting, years ago, I interviewed a European regulator. It was amazing. And she said, you know, you Americans have traded convenience for everything, like everything, because it's like a map or this, and you've traded away, you've become a cheap date for the internet. And I was like, we have, we've given us our, we've given us all our information for what? A dating app and a map and they get all the money? Like to me, I was like, you're a fucking cheap date. Why don't we get a piece of it? And so one of these things around the healthcare is it's so important. And healthcare costs in this country are double. It's $15,000 per capita a year. Insane. And guess where we are? At the bottom of every list, mortality, everything. We're at the bottom. Europe, six, $7,000.

Obesity, diabetes, heart disease. Why is that?

So we're getting a bad fucking deal. And so that's my thing. I'm like, why are we getting the worst? Because it's a perfect flywheel. Exactly. So that's why that one thing, I had to say the number one thing, universal healthcare. A basic level of healthcare.

I think you should leverage your reputation as the scariest journalist on the planet. Okay.

I'm going to sell supplements now. No, not for that. I'm going to do the Gwyneth Apple. I want to do the fucking Gwyneth Apple. Let's do a collab. I think you should- Gently place it in the beautiful handcrafted-

We can do like, we can make ceramics to hold the apple. I mean, imagine. But I think you should wield your influence.

It's a vagina in some fashion. It's like the next vagina candle. Yeah. Perfect. By the way, my sons love their vagina cameras. I gave them to them. You sent them to me.

We had to stop making them. Do not be proud of that. Be proud of the vagina cameras. I am. Good. But it was just. Do not. Became. Do not let anybody. People tried to. Yeah. It was like this great feminist statement. I know that. I love the vagina cameras.

Let me just tell you, I'm friends with Jennifer Beals and we were in Las Vegas and there was a flash dance. She's like, goes like this against flash dance because she's so, and I go, oh, fucking flash is the best. I own the vagina camel. I love it. It's just annoying that people are so reductive

that they can't, couldn't get the point of it. It sounds weird. My sons love it. They're so happy with their vagina. Maybe I need to bring it back. The last thing you say, what worked?

VO2 max was really interesting to find out what that is. Yes. And I don't think it's expensive sometimes, but it's a really good indicator of your, of longevity and health. And if you improve your Vito max. Amazing. One of the things Zeke mentioned was doing things that you're uncomfortable doing, trying new things. So he's a cancer researcher. He learned to make honey. He does ballroom dancing. He does short order cook. I just recently had a Mahjong party. Why? I don't know. I just did. The tiles. Believe me, this is like sweeping the nation. Right, it is. I know,

I know. It's pickleball of 2026, as I say. Don't invite me. So doing things, I shall not. but it was interesting. Like, um, I spend a lot more time with my kids, like, and quality time, like real time. You don't have to spend tons and tons of time, but it really, like my daughter and I started making, I happen to like Instagram food videos. And so we made butter. They're fun. We made butter. We made bread. We do stuff like that. We try, we, I'm making this staple car with my son. Like we saw it online. And so that was kind of fun. I'm using online. The 23 year old, of course. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. The 21 year old could build a car and run away. He's a technologist, but stuff like that. And I think if people start to do that, and I do think absolutely, and this is an opportunity for business, people are tired of extremely online. They want to be with people. COVID made us crazy, crazy, crazy, and, and accelerated online trends are some of which are good, some of which are bad. And so people, I met with this bunch of students in, I've met students, young people in Brooklyn, they play games. It's a game night. I went with a neuroscientist who was explaining what was happening from a cognitive point of view. That's cool. It was cool. And they're all playing games and they're meeting with each other and talking and no phones. And that was astonishing. I met with this group of people called time, something time to, you get introduced to six people you've never met and you meet and play bowling and have dinner. Do you know how hard that is? I love it. I would love that. Well, that would be, they'd be shocked.

But you should. I know. It was time, something. I always try to meet strangers, though. That's the other thing. Like I always, you know, like I had a thing yesterday and I was like, I'm pretty new up here. And I was like, just bring cool people I want to meet. I want to meet. I'm very into that.

But the last thing is interactions with people you don't know, even if they're brief. They're so good for your health. I can't even tell you if you have one health hack, meet. like when you're in it and my son taught me this because he's the friendliest person on earth whenever he goes fine he go he like he's doing it like a minor and with a cashier barista whatever it happens to be he goes hey how was your day this is what happens to people i've started doing it it is crazy how much it works people go like this like this because they don't get asked how their day is but and then you have an interaction and it's a small thing but i have to tell you there's you're trading so many health benefits and it's not going to solve, it's not going to make you live nine years more, but it is going to make you live a second longer. And so, or maybe more, whatever, in a more fulfilled way, whatever, in a more fulfilled way and a cognitively helpful. And it, it helps you, it helps them and it's kind. And that's the one thing that you have to recognize is that, that social interactions with people and not your phone and not people on your phone and i love my phone my this is i love my phone it's crack i know but it is and so that's the one thing is spend time with people and that's the real business opportunity by the

way too well i cannot wait to watch the show thank you it's been an incredible pleasure as usual i'm

sorry we went over that's okay you're just so interesting oh i am very interesting you really are all right i want you to watch k-pop deep in honors though fine no don't don't i'm telling you I will. If you have children, you know this. My children are grown up. Yes, but you need to watch it. You'll be like, thank you, Kara, so much for watching this show. Really? It's a wonderful show. And by the way, the messages in it are very much, very important messages. Very subtle. Very smart. Okay. You watch Rivalry, right? Correct. You know, I haven't seen that yet.

Oh, my God. What are you doing? I watch murder shows.

Okay. Really? Yeah. No. No. I think it's... What movie are you in? You ever in a new movie, right? Oh, you were in Marty Supreme. I was in Marty Supreme. I have not seen that yet. Well, so.

I am going to watch it. That's your homework. I'm going to watch Marty, but I don't know. God damn it. I hate to say it, but I don't like Timothy Schell.

He looks like a woman I've dated. I'm sorry. I know you're not supposed to. I don't know him. I don't know. He's great. I'm sure he's a nice guy. And he's talented. I get it. He just looks like women I've dated many years ago. Oh, that's right. This is over.

Thanks for tuning in. This has been a presentation of Cadence 13 Studios. I hope you'll listen, follow, rate, and review all of our episodes, which are available for free on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts.